"Semi-hip" roof

[bentliv]

Hi
I'm trying to make a model of my house in Tonsberg, Norway in order to do some alterations. My main problem is that I can not find a way to make the roof structure "semi-hip" as shown on the attached picture. Anyone that can explain how to do this?



Thanks

Bent

[Robert W - "robban"]

Hi Bent, welcome to the group!


This is the one way to make a semi hip

1 first you have to prepare the second floor in building location set the wall height to 10-20 mm

2 add walls on the second floor, this will now be 10-20mm height around

3 select the gable walls, open properties for the wall, select level set the high to 2500, after that select auto extend.
This will make the gable wall extend to the roof top.

4 Add a hip roof no matter what slope value is that will we change in next step

5 select long side roof arrow make sure that the Gable is not selected, change the slope type to percent set te slope value to 50 and set vertical distance to 1000 mm more than the gable wall height

6 select short side arrows unselected the other select Custom roof shape.

7 set surface 1 to Gable vertical distance to 2500 mm over the gable wall height

8 add roof segment Surface 2 set it to Straight slope type Degrees slope value to 40 and vertical distance to 500

now will you have a semi hip roof.
/Robert

PS as always in TFP there is more than one way to do this I think Allan can give you a other way to do it. DS

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Bent and Robert,

I think I would do the roof the same as you Robert, although I am not sure why you said in step 3 to select level, then 2500, then select Auto Extend. I just had Auto Extend set by default and it worked fine. I just set the end to Gable, then selected Custom and added the Straight section, setting its slope to 40 degrees and the horizontal distance to 600.  That would need to be adjusted to get the real slope etc anyway.

Bent,
 
I could foresee some more questions maybe, so I took the model a bit further. You may be aware how to do the following but if not then these comments may help:

To create the upper balcony I just extended the Overhang on the Gable part of the roof.

If you look at my BLD file you will notice something odd with the two wing walls on the ground floor balcony - they are made of thin walls (25mm) with a 50mm gap inside - a TINY room. There is a reason that would not become obvious until you tried to render the image in Advanced render, as I have done. If you just extend the two side walls to make the wings, you would find they would render totally black!  There is a bug that causes the program see them as interior walls and wants some 'artificial' light (not sun light) on them. By making a tiny 'room' it converts the outer surfaces to "exterior" and the rendering works correctly.  Basic render is OK but is not as realistic.
On the upper balcony the walls are again drawn as 'rooms' but normal width as there is an enclosed reas anyway. Use the same short wall with auto extend on so they go up to the roof when it is inserted.

I have used floors "by Picking Points" to make the balconies easier. Actually the upper floor would probably be better extended right to the edge of the roof and reduce the side eaves to virtually nothing.  This will overcome the gap in the Soffit on the Balcony section of the roof.

To get the Siding texture running the other way on  the ground floor, change the texture to 90degrees on the Appearance tab (Mapping button).

Probably you will come up with some other questions, as the design is a little different, so just ask - someone will come to the rescue!

Allan

[Robert W - "robban"]

I am not sure why you said in step 3 to select level, then 2500, then select Auto Extend. I just had Auto Extend set by default and it worked fine.

The reason to I set the wall level to 2500, if you will set a window or door in the wall it fits direct, and then you change the wall heights in building location set the wall height to 10-20 mm, and look at level in the wall properties it have inherit the height from building location, but I can be wrong and it not necessary to change the level for it shall work OK.

And by the way your drawing look good Allan, I have use the technik with ultra thin walls then I will have a door with a screen door

/ Robert

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Robert,

In my model I just set the wall to 20mm in Second Floor Location, Inserted the walls (with Auto Extend set), Inserted the roof (which automatically sat at wall height 20mm and the walls then extended to the roof), then inserted the doors and windows directly in the 20mm wall. It worked perfectly, so there should not be a need to set the level etc first. Auto Extend would override that anyway. Windows and doors are governed by the Head Height and are not worried about the wall (as long as there is one there!).

Bent,

In the Location setting for your second floor, although you need to change the wall height to 20mm, or whatever the vertical part of the upper floor walls are (1mm minimum),  the Head Height, should be left as for the ground floor. The Ceiling should be the same as the walls and set to Cathedral with the angle the same as the roof. If there is a flat part at the top then insert it 'By Picking Points' and right click Elevate to put it in place.

This is brief so I hope you can follow it! If you need more detail just ask.

Allan

[bentliv]

Hi Robert and Allan

Thanks a lot for the help on semi hip roof. This works just as it should now (see attached pdf). Now, it seems like I have done something funny to the Dormer (I guess something is wring with the height setting, but I think I should be able to work that out for myself).

Thanks also for the tips on rendering, Allan. Have already made wing walls that should probably come out as black surfaces, but I seem to have some problems with the rendering function (try to render to file, but nothing happens Therefore the pdf...). I'll have to work in this as well I guess. I'll also try to redo the balcony solution according to your tips Allan.

Great forum, I appreciate the help a lot.

Bent

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Bent,

You are obviously getting there - it is looking good!

Re the image rendering: When you start the Advanced Render, does the image gradually appear on the screen as it should, but just not save a file? If so have you ticked the 'Render To File' box? If you don't it will just slowly render on screen but will not save the image when it finishes.
Does Basic render work and save?

When you type in the image file name, change the default BMP to JPG, as it creates a much smaller file, suitable for the forum. The smaller we can keep the images the less frequently they will have to delete older ones!

I have posted an image with typical settings (as I used for my image). If you use the same settings it should work out fine. Set Level 3 for quality - Level 5 makes little difference on exterior views (but can make a lot of difference on interior views). 5 can take much longer too.

Hopefully this will help.

Allan

[Robert W - "robban"]

Hi Bent Looking good. Abut the dorm i got that effect to, but you have to think that the gable of the dorm is the long side and the long side is the gable, with other words the dorm roof have the same orientation as the normal roof.
You have to decrease the vertical height of the gable side.

This was maybe some cryptic but then you look at the properties I think you will understand.

Robert

[bentliv]

Hi Allan and Robert
Thanks for all the help on semi-hip roof, small rooms and rendering. Most things works quite fine now, and the project is coming on. But as I go along, new things pop up of course.

The new problem now is terrain inside the house. I want to model the outside entrance to the basement (between the two doors in the attached pics). As you can see from the picture with terrain, the terrain is covering the part where the stairway down to the basement door is. I have tried to close the area completely with foundation walls (a wall across where the stairs is now coming out.). No luck, the same result. On the other picture you can see what I'm trying to do without the terrain displayed). The terrain only goes away when I place full 1st froor walls on the top of the foundation walls. Any idea about what is wrong?

Then a couple of comments on the things you have already answered:
Rendering: You can see that I'm still posting pdf's and not rendered jpegs. I tried to follow the exact procedure you kindly layed out further down in the post, Allan. I get as far as past the radiosity. I get the full picture in the viewing area, and the Display button "Radiosity " is lit. But when I select the raytrace button, no image is displayed in the viewing area, and no file is created.... Any idea? I'm running Microsoft Vista... (I saw that someone have had issues with rendering on Vista before..)

Semi-Hip roofs are now working as it should, and I'm able to create the roofs as I want them. Thanks for the tips, Robert!


Thanks

Bent

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Bent,

Looks like you are making good progress!  The terrain should be simple. In Settings/ Program Settings/ Terrain, you have an option to set which location you want the Terrain to cut around.  By default it will be set to cut the Ground Floor.  If you change it to cut around the Foundation it probably will solve the problem. If that creates other problems where there are buildings with no foundation then you could add one to those buildings (wont be seen under the Terrain) or leave it to cut around the Ground floor and cut the Terrain by using the 'Room Divider' tool (basically an Invisible Wall). This will in effect extend the perimiter of the ground floor walls, so the program should cut the terrain around them.

If you have not already done so, it would be good to read through all the options on the Settings/ Program Settings menu, so that you can see all the things that can be changed. You may not want to change anything just now, but at least you will see what can be changed if you want to later.

Re the rendering problem - I do not think Vista is the problem. I am using Vista and have no issues with it at all. What worries me is your comment "when I select the Raytrace button". You should not need to select the Raytrace button, at least not until after the render has completed, by which time it has saved the image anyway.  These 'radio' buttons are just to look at the two steps of the process and Modify the viewpoint (so you can raytrace only again from a different angle). On Radiosity you can view and move about the model with shadows etc, while Ratrace shows you the image produced.

Where does yours get to? 
Do the two green bars both fill, one after the other? 
Do the Steps progress in the Radiosity mode?
Does the Line Count in the Raytrace step increase to maximum selected? These are the number of lines that make up the final image.  If you have it set to produce an image 800x600 then, after Radiosity, it should go on to build these steps progressively to 600 and the image should develop on the screen (in place of the Radiosity one), developing line by line from the bottom and from the centre, up the screen.  Does this happen? 
Do you have the Render settings exactly as on my previouis image?
Specifically, is the Render to File box ticked?
Does Basic render work? This is usually fine for outside images anyway - it is inside where the Advanced (Radiosity) are best.
Sorry about all the questions but they will help to track down why you are having a problem with this.

You can export the screen image also on File/ Export/ 2D image. This will default to TGA but change it to JPG - at least this will be better than creating a PDF and much smaller.  This File/Export image however, is not a render, it is still just the screen view similar, to the one you have in your PDF images - how did you produce those? Screen prints presumably.

Anyway if you can answer the questions above we can hopefully solve the render problem for you.

Allan

[bentliv]

Hi Allan
Thanks for the tip about the terrain-question, and sorry for being so ignorant not to figure that one out myself... I'll also make sure to go through all settings options to see what other things are available.

Thanks also for accidentally to answer another thing I have been wondering; I could not find any invincible walls... Now I realize that room deviders do the same job. Excellent!

W.r.t the rendering question, I believe I'm in deeper trouble. I'll try to answer your questions one by one:

Where does yours get to? 
Do the two green bars both fill, one after the other? No, no bars fill at all

Do the Steps progress in the Radiosity mode? Yes, in a way. No green bar is moving, but polygons and time is counting. My latest try gave 15112 polygons and 9s of time.

Does the Line Count in the Raytrace step increase to maximum selected? These are the number of lines that make up the final image.  If you have it set to produce an image 800x600 then, after Radiosity, it should go on to build these steps progressively to 600 and the image should develop on the screen (in place of the Radiosity one), developing line by line from the bottom and from the centre, up the screen.  Does this happen? NO it does'n seem like it is progressing to the Raytrace stage at all. (I have chosen an SVGA (800 x 600) image size).

Do you have the Render settings exactly as on my previouis image?  Yes
Specifically, is the Render to File box ticked? Yes


Does Basic render work? This is usually fine for outside images anyway - it is inside where the Advanced (Radiosity) are best. No, I don't think so. When I try basic render, it sais it is calculating shadows for a few secs, then claims Done!. No image shows in the viewing area, and nothing happens on the green bar.
Hope this gives some further info on how the rendering is (not) working. I really appreciating your efforts to solve my problems, Allan. Thanks again.

Bent

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Bent,

This is not looking good is it?  I was hoping it was only settings that were the problem but it is starting to look like something deeper. By the way, thanks for answering between my questions - makes it much easier to follow.  You did not comment omn the File/ Export JPG.  Did you try that?

Now to the render problem again - more questions I am afraid but try this first:

Start a new project -draw 4 walls and insert a roof, and render that. You should get something under 50 polygons and hopefully it will complete.  This will prove whether it is not just something corrupt in the model that is causing it to fail - it can happen.

If that works, you could try File/ Repair Project. It may delete a corrupt wall or something and you may have to insert it again.

If that does not work try turning various elements off (eg walls or roof or accessories) progressively rendering inbetween, until you end up with just the terrain.  This will identify where the corrupt element is - when it fails. Walls are usually the problem so turn them off first, generally a bad join and zooming in on joins or breaks in wall can identify the problem. Just redo the join.

If the test model fails then it is a cuse for more concern - so more questions:

What is the full version number of your copy of TFP? (Help/ About TFP..  Latest is 14.0.C2.662) A very early version was stopping with 'Done' on Basic but no image on screen or file.  The version will clarify that and indicate patches are needed.

You mentioned the 15,000 polygons took 9 seconds. Is that when it stops? 

Polygon count should be replaced with step count, in the case of Quality 5 it should count up to 1500 out of 1500 (1500/1500 - less for lower qualities) - the bar should progress at the same time/rate. Beneath that should be Convergence and time count. I presume you do not get those?

I do not understand why that would happen, unless there is an issue with the PC itself - which is where I need to hand over to someone else as the technical side of computers is beyond me. Pat usually can help with those things.

To help him or others who may be able to help, can you give some of your computer specifications, RAM, Processor type and speed, Video card type and memory. The Polygon count and time seems to me to indicate that the PC is up to the job but I am only guessing.

Try out the test model first and lets see what happens then and get back to us.

Allan

[bentliv]

Hi Allan
I have now tried to follow your instructions, and I think I have got a bit further anyway. Again I'll try to comment on each of your questions:

Start a new project -draw 4 walls and insert a roof, and render that. You should get something under 50 polygons and hopefully it will complete.  This will prove whether it is not just something corrupt in the model that is causing it to fail - it can happen. First I did basic render. No good result, see attached screen shot. Then I did Advanced render with settings as you suggested. Good result! See screen shots of settings, result and also resulting jpeg file. One thing thoug; Only 199/500 steps? Is that OK?

If that works, you could try File/ Repair Project. It may delete a corrupt wall or something and you may have to insert it again. Did that, and the File/repair project was finished in no time with a message Recovery successful. I could not see that any walls or anything has dissappeared. Then tried to render again. Same result as before (see attached screen shot of result). No green bars, and no file...

What is the full version number of your copy of TFP? (Help/ About TFP..  Latest is 14.0.C2.662) A very early version was stopping with 'Done' on Basic but no image on screen or file.  The version will clarify that and indicate patches are needed. Version 14.00.C.624, build date March 10 2009. One thing, though. I started this project with a trial-version down-loaded from the internet, then switched to the current version when I received the installation CDs....

You mentioned the 15,000 polygons took 9 seconds. Is that when it stops? Yes, correct, see screen shot...


W.r.t PC details, I don't think we should go there yet, because the small seems to render OK. Seems like it's my model that is the trouble, don't you think?

Thanks again for all the valuable help.

Bent

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Bent,

Looks like the model is the problem. That is good because it means we can sort it out - hopefully!

199/500 steps OK. It will terminate that part when it has done what it needs - if you set to Quality 5 it will usually go to 1500/1500.

The program version you have IS the one that had the rendering issues. The trial version is the full version so that is not the problem, but there were some issues with 624 and it was patched very soon after release.  At the bottom of the forum you will find a link to the patches available. Choose the one that is 624 - 662 as it contains all the patches since the first release.  Do a backup of your Catalogue (if you have imported any objects or modified any significantly), otherwise what was in the old catalogue will be in the replaced version anyway. Keep a backup of your model file too somewhere just in case.

As you say there is no need to go down the PC track for now at least, as the test model render worked. The Basic render would not work at all as this was the broken bit in that version (624). It was the Basic render failure that rang bells for me So I suspected you mayu have that version.

The Repair Project does not always solve the issues, but try it again anyway after the patch is applied.
 
Even after you do the patch you may still have to find the corrupt element, so try turning off the different parts of the model (View Filter - eye icon) and render after each 'turn off' and it should work when you have the corrupt element turned off.  You will then have to find the break in the walls (if that is the problem) or just delete the elements until it works. It is just a trial and error process unfortunately but using the View Filter to turn things off, speeds up the process.

Let us know how you go

Allan

[bentliv]

Hi Allan
This did the trick! 

I downloaded the patch to the latest version (was a bit dissappointed that I got the very old version when I bought the program in March 2010, but it works with upgrade).

It was actually my whole roof structure that was corrupt. So with new, carefully inserted roof and dormers, it now works as it should. See attached rendered image.

Thanks again for all support on this. Would never have figured it out without it.

Bent