Rendering Issues - please check if these should be reported as bugs

[Allan Chesney]

While generally the renderings are impressively realistic, I seem to be having some issues and hope that someone else can check these out (Jack? Doug? Dave? or anyone), just to see is these are bugs we should report, or if they are just problems with my set-up. I have put these in one topic as they are all related. Hardware Acceleration is OFF and all were rendered at a quality lever of 5. NO settings were changed in any of the example images

[Doug.S]

I'll reply to some of your questions from memory; others I'd have to test.

 I can run program OK with HA on for everything but renders....it will render but always produces washed out results...turn HA off and renders OK.

2. & 4.& 5.   I often get exteriors  to render "washed out" (from an inside camera looking out a window...usually its the grass turned bright yellow or white...but the sky is usually OK)....and with a reset and re-render it may become OK or be the reverse...there is no logic to reset...usually it resets but the next render may be better, the same, or worse....with no other changes.

I do not seem to have a problem with having to render from inside or outside first....I don't ever remember doing a camera move from in to out or out to in from within the real view window.

Doug.S

[Allan Chesney]

Doug,

I would be very interested if you could confirm the 'sun through the doors' test.  No sun through openings only through glass - if you render from inside first.  Just take a new project 4 walls, a window and an open door and render. Is there any sun on the floor through the door opening?  Close and open the program again and this time reposition the camera so you are looking through the door from the OUTSIDE and you will see the sun going through the door onto the floor. Do not re-render, use Modify Viewpoint and move the camera from outside to inside so you can clearly see the door/floor and do Step 2 only.  It will raytrace the scene again using the same radioisty and you will now have sun on the inside through the doors.  At least that is what happens for me.  At the same time check to see if you get a reflection of the sky in the floor.  Hopefully you can post the results of the test - I would be interested to see them.

You will probably also find that closing and opening the program between renders, gets rid of the otherwise erratic results.  I always have very consistant results but only if I close and re-open before the next rende,r otherwise they are all over the place as you have experienced. 

I am sure there is a bug here somewhere but would like some others to confirm it.

Allan

[Doug.S]

Yes, I do believe you found a bug.

First, as of this reporting, I have an install change.....but the results seem to be all the same. Up to now I've been using a trial version. Today I uninstalled the trial, and installed fresh (different folder location too) from DVD...TFP12pro

First observation...render, reset, render still not repeatable.  Seems I can close 3d-realview render window and re-open it and that does a "reset" and maybe I don't have to close the whole TFP program between renders.  (also have to watch as render settings don't seem to stick between renders when 3d-realview is closed and re-opened)...more testing on that later.

Did your setup ....  see attached files...

render from inside has no sun thru open door but shows thru windows.

Reposition camera to outside, render shows sun thru doorway to floor....move camera  to inside, (no re-render radiosity) raytrace using same radiosity...and sun shows thru windows and doorway.

Also notice grass renders different from first inside to second inside (yellow-white vs green)

Confirmed!

Doug.S

[Allan Chesney]

Doug,

Thanks for confirming that it is not just me.

If you render inside first (your first image) then move outside and do the Step 2 again, do you get the black outside wall that I get?  Also do you get a reflection of the sky in the floor or is it dark?

Incidentally mine is the trail version. When I purchased the download I just applied the code to the trail version so I did not have to download again.  What is the verion number on your DVD version?  Mine is 12.00.C1.551

Allan

[mcpruitt]

Allen,

I did not use the trial version (couldn't get a good download), but my purchased copy has the same version number as yours.

MCP

[Doug.S]

my installed from DVD version is identical to yours and is same as my previous trial version.

Yes, confirmed move to outside and render (no reset, re-use radiosity) yields black.....and sun not shining thru door on floor and no sky reflections

I did another inside render...and in none do I see any sky reflections on floor.

Doug.S

[Doug.S]

More confirming data...

I also installed TFP12p on my laptop...don't use it much there because of less CPU, vid card, and RAM, but handy for portability.

Appears that HA on or off work equally well...the same render results (except for speed, of course HA on is much faster for screen re-draws...happy that it works)

But rendering has same problems as above...reset = inconsistent re-renders

Same no sun thru door, different if render in vs. out first etc.  No new problems, duplicates other problems seen so far.

I'm thinking the render results seem to make some sense....look at all the data of in vs. out and lights on vs. off etc and make a table of expectations and looks like it works approx. correct except for no control of outside/inside contrast/brightness.

Using the same radiosity inside vs outside probably not possible to work because of the great differences of the light and its distribution...but lack of sun shine on floor thru open door but shows thru windows certainly is a bug. Re-use of radiosity all within the same room and same general camera views does seem to work OK.

Doug.S

[PvdE]

Just reading along and trying to repeat some of the experiments.

1.  Started inside, and set brightness at -2

2. Highest quality level

3. I noticed that the result can be completely washed out; cleared the radiosity and run again with a reasonable result.

4. Note that the outside light is not coming through the door and the opening, but shows up again in the raytrace.

5. The two trees cast a shadow and are also reflected in the wood floor.

I attach two screen captures to illustrate what I saw.

--Paul

[Allan Chesney]

Paul,

Thanks for trying this out also. You appear to have the same problem with the reflection on the floor - it is only of the trees not the background (sky) - which is what Doug and I got.

You appear to have got a slightly different result with the sun through the openings. I assume your first image is a screen dump of the Radiosity Step and the Second one is the completed image after the Raytrace step. If that is right then yours added the sun in the Raytrace step for the openings.  Wonder why yours did a half job of it and ours did't do it at all?

After doing this inside render did you try moving the camera outside and do step 2 again?  I am interested to see if the outside walls are black as they were for Doug and me. 

Allan

[Dave Taylor (TFP Product Manager)]

**The following responses come directly from the Cadsoft Development Team.**
Issue:  No sunlight through openings without glass

Response:
   The problem stems from the fact that the Advanced rendering engine requires that openings be treated as a surface but with a special flag that states they are neither an interior surface nor an exterior surface. Unfortunately for the user, TurboFLOORPLAN does not treat openings in the same manner; they are simply treated as holes in the surfaces .
   We are actively looking at ways to bridge the gap between the data the TurboFLOORPLAN geometry engine produces, and how that data is interpreted by the Advanced rendering engine.

Issue:  Background images do not appear in reflections

Response:
   This was by design. In trying to free users from the issues associated with trying to properly place background textures and cameras so that they look realistic, Cadsoft took the approach of allowing the user to pick a texture and the rest would be handled internally and automatically.  This means that the images are given a position that is perpendicular to the camera and are made to fill the field of view. Because of the

[Doug.S]

Replies again appreciated....good to know status of problem....and whether to know its a user or system problem and going to be fixed in future

Regarding reflections of background images....a couple of my other 3D programs use HDRI as the "background" lighting source and optionally as a reflection source...very effective tools....no idea ho hard it is to add to TFP/Envisioneer....but I'd suggest incorporating it if feasible/easy.

I all cases, especially if there is no future s/w change expected.....would be a workaround solution....apparently in case of background reflection we'd simply have to place a large object like a picture or mirror with a .jpg applied and placed as the "background" and it would serve as a controllable background as well as produce reflections as desired.

I'd suggest you might add a new "topic" called "workarounds" or suggest we post such under the "tips and tricks"?.....and revise the intro note to let others know where to find "workarounds".

[Allan Chesney]

Dave,

As Doug said - thanks so much for the update.  It is excellent to get some feedback and to know that issues we find are being addressed.  I will put a post in Feature Requests re the background in the hope that there may be a simple solution.

Is there any feedback yet on the outside walls rendering black (when seen and rendered from the inside)?

Allan