Author Topic: plateaus & random TFP thoughts  (Read 346 times)

dianedebuda

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plateaus & random TFP thoughts
« on: September 30, 2011, 03:40:01 pm »
Have detoured over to learn a bit about Sketchup & Google Earth.  Decided not to try to use a 3D SU/GE terrain but did generate a photo terrain jpg with bright yellow contour lines on it as a tracing base.  Sad to see that in TFP that Trace seems to be attached to a layer & not visible if that layer is not current.  Using SU/GE sure helped defining what my TFP terrain size should be for landscaping.  GE indicated that I have an elevation change range of about 12 ft & that seems about right.

I found a post where Jack says to start plateaus at the highest edge and work your way around.  Am experimenting, but don't see much difference where the start is.  Of course, mine look like nested "C"s with the open side off the defined terrain.  Any "hidden" reason to start plateaus on the "high" side?  One irritation that I found is that the plateau construction lines disappear if part of those lines scroll off  & are not viewable.  Seems to continue to building the plateau, but you're working blind.

Is there a mindset for using walk around, fly around, etc? I have no trouble in 2D, but am not able to control movements in 3D.  Maybe like "pretend you are..."  I'm always changing elevation unintentionally and it gets out of control rapidly.  The pilot in me wants to control Z-axis movement with a yoke, I guess.  Was able to use SU mouse setup for 3D movement OK, though.  I had trouble with the old FP too and used the direct camera controls most of the time.  Usually I just want to stay at certain elevation and distance from the target & pan the camera which is what "look around" is supposed to do, but it changes elevation too.  And when you release the mouse, you have to reselect the view mode. Isn't there a way to keep the last selected view mode?   The camera controls seem to be much more difficult for me to use than old FP.  Miss the handle to move the lens of the camera up & down.  And I found it much easier to move the camera in old FP; seems like separate pick points for camera & target would be give more control, but it takes more time.  I'd like to be able to just move both at the same time like you could in old FP.  Of course, if I was able to control movement in the viewing window with the mouse instead of resorting to the camera control window...

Another thing that's different from old FP is the position of the filters.  I would have the filters open in the catalog area & be able to quickly turn things off & on.  The TFP pop-up filter takes a lot more clicks & always "starts from the beginning" with its positioning.  An option for docking the filter control that I don't know about?

Funny my posts here end up being long.  I really hate to write.

Doug.S

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Re: plateaus & random TFP thoughts
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2011, 04:36:20 pm »
You can make all layers visible all the time by setting "dim" from default approx. 95% to 0% (program settings) but it may confuse you for everyday drawing as layers become confusing as to what is on what layer....but good to use on temp. basis.

Doug.S

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Re: plateaus & random TFP thoughts
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2011, 04:42:46 pm »
I rarely use walk or fly around...too finicky/uncontrollable...... I use pan/zoom(around center of mouse pointer using mouse wheel) and from/to in camera view as well as camera height

You can save/name many cameras...leave most at one view setting to always have a same view for design and render. You can use view manager to set several tabs with each camera view on a tab for faster changes between views.....or tile several windows on screen....each showing what you want to see.

Allan Chesney

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Re: plateaus & random TFP thoughts
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2011, 10:05:08 pm »
Hi Diane,

Don't worry about the length of the posts - I hate writing too yet they seem to get long too.  Sometimes I have made them purposely brief and some have come back for more details. Conversely someone with a problem explains too briefly and we have to ask for more details. So my thoughts is make it as long as necessary to cover the point properly.  The other good thing is to start a separate post if the subject changes.  That make it much easier using the Search for others to find answers to questions that may have been covered previously.

Anyway just to add to Doug's comments:
Sad to see that in TFP that Trace seems to be attached to a layer & not visible if that layer is not current.  Using SU/GE sure helped defining what my TFP terrain size should be for landscaping.  GE indicated that I have an elevation change range of about 12 ft & that seems about right.
The trace image is not visible because it is just an image.  Other objects and elements will show through the layers (depending on the 'dimming' as Doug pointed out) but images don't so you have to do the trace on the same layer as the image (which does make it a bit difficult). IF SketchUp will export a DXF file then use that as it can be traced through from another layer.

On terrain size - this should normally be somewhat bigger than your Site or block size.  Some get the two confused - the Terrain is the ground and theoretically should go way off onto the distance when viewed in 3D.  If you are unable to see the terrain contours of your plateau it is because you are off the terrain and MAYBE it should be bigger.  That touches on your next question:

I found a post where Jack says to start plateaus at the highest edge and work your way around.  Am experimenting, but don't see much difference where the start is.  Of course, mine look like nested "C"s with the open side off the defined terrain.  Any "hidden" reason to start plateaus on the "high" side?  One irritation that I found is that the plateau construction lines disappear if part of those lines scroll off  & are not viewable.  Seems to continue to building the plateau, but you're working blind.
You would start drawing the plateau off the Terrain and return off the Terrain IF the block was at it's miximum height at that point, otherwise it would slope down again on the outside of the shape you have drawn.  If it is not just a straight slope (if it was you would use the Slope tool) but is still all sloping one way nevertheless, then start and finish each plateau shape off the terrain on the high side, so that edge is your highest point.  If it is not a one way multi-slope then you can start and finish the plateau anywhere. Your "nested Cs" are a typical situation where you would use this 'start off the Terain' technique. The fact that you cannot see the contours lines off the terrain does not matter as they will not be seen anyway in either 2D or 3D.  The Terrain is the limit of what you are doing so it does not matter how they are drawn in the 'off terrain' area. I generally just roughly follow the edge of the terrain once I have gone off it. If you want to show the mountain that sits at the back of your property, then your Terrain should be big enough to include it and in this case you would not have to start and finish off the terrain.

Bear in mind too, especially since you are trying to trace a contour map, that you can select and the adjust the shape of the plateaus after they are drawn, to line up with the 'map'. You may have to drag the mouse over the area so you can see them to be able to select the one you want to change.  The line represents the upper edge (that you set as the height) but lines will be shown on the terrain depending what you set the Contour Distance to in the Terrain Settings.

As far as moving around in 3D is concerned, apart from the zoom that Doug mentioned, I generally prefer the Walk tool.  This always keeps the previously set height, which I set to eye level so it always looks like it would in reality - set the Target Height and Camera Height the same. The secret with most movement tools is to use the plan window to move the camera and target very close together or movement will not appear natural and you will find youself outside the house before you know it. Fly Around is Ok if you want a to look at the roof or something and turn the model around. For the latter, in the camera plan, set the target in the centre of the model and the camera outside and you can then rotate the building - moving up and down if you want in the process. To get back to your evey level view click the Reset Camera button.

As you try out the different movement tools, watch the camera plan to see what it does with the camera - this will help you to see what happens with each tool.

No way to dock the Filter unfortunately. To be honest I can't remember how the FP one worked now although I do recall at the time thinking it was better than the TFP version.

Hopefully the above is clear enough to follow.

Allan


« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 10:12:43 pm by Allan Chesney »
Allan Chesney,
Kalamunda, Perth, Western Australia
www.alchesdesigns.iinet.net.au

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dianedebuda

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Re: plateaus & random TFP thoughts
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2011, 04:43:08 am »
Trace/dimming: Knew about the dimming, but the image completely disappears.  So that means if I want to use the same image for a couple of different layers (ok, locations actually, but that's not how I usually use it), I need to add that image to each of those layers, right?

Terrain/Site: Don't use Site info since my property is much larger than what I'm trying to model and lot boundaries are meaningless.  That's why the GE snapshot was so much help; used that to measure/define what should be included.

Plateau: Think I actually "get" Plateau concept; it's the drawing mechanics that I was trying to ask about.  With slope, it really does matter where you start to draw.  Since Plateau is an enclosed area that evenly slopes to center, I can't see that it matters where the draw starts as long as you're drawing the same shape.  Was trying to ask if there was any other reason for starting "high".  In my case, the low part is where the detail is.  If I start there, I can have it zoomed in and can zoom out as I work my way around and not lose the construction lines.  I have a Terrain of 385 ft x 385 ft and have tried elevations of 1 ft and 2 ft with zenith set to right since I mostly have gentle slope.  As expected, the 2 ft trial looks a little more stepped than the 1 ft trial.  The Grass texture kind of hides a bit of the contour.  Was surprised that couldn't use material "Color" - it just shows up as white.  Had to use a Paint.  When I'm done with Terrain layout, will I be able to find the texture I really need - Mowed Weeds?  ;D

3D mouse control: Allan, your tip about close camera/target placement helps tremendously.  Still have a problem with Walk, though.  Intuitively, if I move mouse left/right, I want to move left/right, not turn my head and have the view rotate.  Once I can get it from the brain to the fingers that up/down controls walk speed and not direction, I think that'll work.

Filter: Sad it can't be docked.  With old FP, used that in 3D with Camera Properties heavily.  Like I said, I used Locations more as layers and could quickly compare styles drawn on different layers.  In 2D, it made turning the roof on/off easy too.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 06:34:39 am by dianedebuda »

Doug.S

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Re: plateaus & random TFP thoughts
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2011, 07:08:52 am »
Filter: Sad it can't be docked.  With old FP, used that in 3D with Camera Properties heavily.  Like I said, I used Locations more as layers and could quickly compare styles drawn on different layers.  In 2D, it made turning the roof on/off easy too.

If important to you (and since I use two monitors it would be nice to float/open on #2 monitor with rest of panels/palettes)....you can make a suggestion and post in this forum under "Feature Requests".

Allan Chesney

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Re: plateaus & random TFP thoughts
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2011, 02:51:45 pm »
Hi Diane,

I can't think of a situation where you would need to trace multiple times but if you need to, just right click the image and Duplicate to Locations. It will then be at exactly the same spot on the other locations.

Where you actually START drawing is not critical but just that any high side of a 'sloping plateau' is off the terrain.

The issue with Colour hs been reported, but Pait works as a workaround. If you need a Mowed Weeds texture why not use your own photo?

Allan
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 02:57:02 pm by Allan Chesney »
Allan Chesney,
Kalamunda, Perth, Western Australia
www.alchesdesigns.iinet.net.au

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Jack Zimmer

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Re: plateaus & random TFP thoughts
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2011, 06:00:21 pm »
Hi Diane,

If you select Alt, on your keyboard, you will notice each first letter of the Menu is underlined. This is for Keyboard 'shortcuts'.

So if you want to quickly access the View Filter without the mouse.

Click Alt  (activates Menu underline - shortcut options)

Then click VVV  (v three times).... you should get your View Filter to pop up. Not as good as an active open Layer tool, but sometimes faster than using the mouse)

The reason you click vvv is the View Filter is found in the> View menu listed under /> View Filters / > View Filter (first letters are VVV)

if you wanted to save a file you can press ALT +F+S

Jack
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 06:40:06 pm by Jack Zimmer »

dianedebuda

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Re: plateaus & random TFP thoughts
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2011, 07:01:38 am »
Multi-Trace example: 1-contour lines for terrain, paths, driveways, etc; 2-buildings at various base elevations which will probably be on different location/layers  Actually, I'll probably do what I did in old FP - create a fake trace layer that's normally hidden with all the buildings, foundations, etc. and copy/crop that to the appropriate "real" layers as needed - which would then only require the single image.  Can use that to simplify terrain cut-out control.  Of course, with old FP, Copy was problematic & always had to redraw for each layer.

Thanks for confirming my plateau drawing mindset.  Didn't *think* there should be a difference, but...

Jack, I try to mostly work only with the mouse, so switching to the keyboard would slow me down.  Do most of my work now reclined in bed with 42" TV at foot that I use as a monitor.  (Big old-movie buff.  Actually set it up for movie viewing/editing.)  But it's good that you mentioned it in case another reader doesn't know about keyboard menu shortcuts.

Allan Chesney

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Re: plateaus & random TFP thoughts
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2011, 08:01:45 am »
Hi Diane,

Multi-Trace example: 1-contour lines for terrain, paths, driveways, etc; 2-buildings at various base elevations which will probably be on different location/layers  

Contours (Terrain), paths, driveways, plants etc are all Terrain elements, so, even though you trace them when the program is set to the Ground Floor location (or wherever your trace image is), they still attach to the Terrain and are not related to the location the building is on. This means the terrain elements can be traced at the same time as the walls. Unless the upper floors are drasically different to the ground floor, I would just trace them all on one location, then select what I wanted on the upper floor, right click and select Duplicate To Location. You can then just adjust whatever you  need on the upper location.

Before you start working with multiple levels make sure you preset all the vertical distances in Settings / Building Locations.

Sorry but I could not quite follow what you meant by the following:
copy/crop that to the appropriate "real" layers as needed - which would then only require the single image.  Can use that to simplify terrain cut-out control.  

Things work differently in TFP and my memory of FP is fading I am afraid!  In TFP the terrain is "cut out" (a hole cut in it) automatically by the selected terrain, or not at all, depending on the setting chosen in Settings / Program Settings / Terrain. Similarly if you use the Landscape toolbar's 'Pads' button, it will cut out the terrain vertically, making a flat bottomed 'recess' in the Terrain for the building to sit on.

Hope those thoughts help.

Allan
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 08:03:18 am by Allan Chesney »
Allan Chesney,
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dianedebuda

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Re: plateaus & random TFP thoughts
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2011, 10:37:03 am »
Have house plus several outbuildings/structures that have various base (floor) and ceiling heights.  House actually has 2nd section with lower floor level than 1st section but same ceiling height (same roof line) and a 3rd section with 2nd story (1st story elevations match 2nd section).  Haven't started to draw these yet, so just speculating based on what I've read & headaches I had with old FP.  Think it may be easier to handle some of the structures with individual layers.  Copy/Crop = duplicate & adjust.

I haven't tried any wall/ceiling/floor height/elevations mods yet, so I think it's much too early to talk about those other than layer concepts.  Don't want to waste folk's time with something I can do once I try it.  Right now just working on basic terrain, but trying to plan ahead.

Just FWIW: Had v16 trial loaded, installed purchased Pro v15.1. Trial expired, so removed it.  The v16 removal apparently trashed part of v15.1 so I had to reinstall it.

Allan Chesney

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Re: plateaus & random TFP thoughts
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2011, 02:15:22 pm »
Hi Diane,

It is good that you are trying to underdtand the Locations before you start. Many rush in, draw everything on one level, then do the Terrain, only to find half their buildings are underground!!

You seem to be getting the hang of it - it is much easier than FP once you understand the concept. You can have as many locations as you want, one for each floor level being the minimum. However you can have any number at the same level too. For instance, you could have a Location set exactly the same as the Ground floor and just use it to insert furniture for example - so you can turn it off easily.

As long as you have the floor levels (top surface) correct and the roof is inserted on the Location that has the defined wall height that will put the roof at the right height, then everything will work OK. Exterior walls are set by default to autoextend to the roof and the roof inserts at the nominated wall height for that Location, so all the walls, although on different base levels will extend to the roof, or into a gable, without you having to adjust individual wall heights.

You may already understand those concept, so my appologies if you do. You are obviously thinking ahead to get it right so that is great!

Too late now obviously, but you could have just left the V16 trial in place and you could just activate it later if you decided to upgrade at a later date. Each version installed can be operated on the same computer, as long as both are not open at the same time.

All the best with your project.

Allan


Allan Chesney,
Kalamunda, Perth, Western Australia
www.alchesdesigns.iinet.net.au

TurboFloorPlan V16.0.C1.901
Envisioneer CS 7.2.C1.972
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dianedebuda

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Re: plateaus & random TFP thoughts
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2011, 04:35:31 pm »
Opened up my old FP 8.2 drawing.  82 layers, but quite few were for tricks to overcome FP limitations.

This 3D navigation is killing me.  I want a pan that doesn't rotate; just moves side to side and doesn't change elevation.  Have thoughts about reverting to FP10 (didn't like FP11)  just 'cause the camera was so much easier to use - and then I remember why I had to use 82 layers.  ;D

Doug.S

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Re: plateaus & random TFP thoughts
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2011, 05:49:21 pm »
This 3D navigation is killing me.  I want a pan that doesn't rotate; just moves side to side and doesn't change elevation. 

in 3D view use "slide" looks like a 4 arrow icon....use it....may not look exactly like pan but as you use it see camera properties window and camera moves as in "pan"

dianedebuda

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Re: plateaus & random TFP thoughts
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2011, 04:13:45 am »
Have tried it, but it seems to change elevation quickly.  After looking through the Feature Requests, looks like I'm not the only one frustrated with 3D navigation & camera control.  Since those requests have been there since the beginning of v12, I doubt much is going to change.