Bug Report/Usability Issues

[ahr8tch]

Just dropped the dime and got TFP.  Brown dropped it off yesterday as a matter of fact.

So far, I've found one big bug.  When trying to set location in Settings/Program_Settings/Global_Settings, I get a lock-up that requires that I invoke Task Manager and kill the process.  I'm running on WinXP-Pro SP2 with a 3.3GHz machine and 2 GB RAM.

And while I'm at it, I'll record a few complaints:
1) setting length on a wall is too difficult (the little box that existed in FP3D in the lower, left corner spoiled me);
2) some of the objects in FP3D seem to have disappeared.  There aren't as many bathtub styles for example;
3) abbreviating the United States of America to USA makes finding it in the drop down menu difficult;
4) Help/Online_Software_Help returns a broken link (as of 01 October 2007 22:41 CDT);
5) please, oh please, tell me how to get rid of the annoying wizard that appears everything I load TFP!:
6) one would think that a fancy software company would have a webmaster who could customize this forum (the layout and color scheme are the defaults for the Simple Machines Forum; which is free, php-based forum software.

Enough for now.

[Jack Zimmer]

5) / Uncheck in Program setting Standard tab.


1) / Click on  (edit, meant to say the 'wall dimension') / pop up allows you to enter dim . Can't be easier than that.

Z

[ahr8tch]

Thanks, Jack!

Played around some more today and found the settings and got rid of the pop-ups.

Do you know if it's possible to specify wall lengths like you could in FP3D?  I know that you can click on a dimension and a box comes up that allows you to enter a specific value.  This works OK most of the time, but sometimes it will change the location or dimension of another wall that intersects.  This is maddening and I haven't found a way to control it.

Also, I can't find any graphics for automobiles.  With the exception of cabinetry, the repositories for objects seem to be far less exhaustive than FP3D - or I haven't found them yet. 

I really like the speed and the ease of perspective and designer 2D views, but in many respects, I liked FP3D better ('cause I'd learned it, probably).  TFP has a ways to go to justify the additional cash layout, IMO.

[Jack Zimmer]

I had trouble getting the hang of moving walls with the Edit Dimension pop up at first too. But it is real simple now.

Just remember this rule , the wall you select is the wall that moves. Give that concept a try and you'll find in no time your not even thinking about which to move.

If you get into Sectioning, using the View Manager and the flexablity of Roof / Walls / Windows etc., you'll realize that it is much better than FPlan v11.

Z

[ahr8tch]

Thanks, again, for responding, Jack!

Please don't think that I'm one of those who is out to damage TFP's reputation.  I'm not.  I have no axe to grind.  I'm retired and use this software only to amuse myself - mostly building 'castles in the air'.  I used FP3D the same way.  Also, understand that I used to develop and support very large software applications - millions of lines of code and hundreds of user screens.  I know from many years of long hard hours how difficult it is to support users.  I also know that as a software developer/supporter you must explain new features or changed features in terms that your old users can relate to the knowledge and skills they had acquired.  It appears that IMSI abandoned the FP3D code and purchased (or developed) a new product to replace it without giving their installed base adequate tools to ease the transition.  Some of the behavior of the two different software products is maddeningly different and there is no explanatory help for the user.  Line dimensioning without the Dimension Box is an example.  I am hopeful that this will be corrected over time, but I'm very much aware that if TFP is not commercially successful enough, there will be no funds to provide the help we need.

Back to the line dimensioning problem:  I'm attaching two jpegs, Example 1 and Example2, that I hope will clarify my question and explain my frustration.  Example 1 shows a structure example where two rectangles will be joined by walls that start at 90 degrees to the long sides of the rectangles.  They will be joined by an angular wall that will connect the two walls that jut from the rectangles.  The problem is that when I try to set the length of the jutting wall, the software does so by shifting the wall from which it extends making the area of the rectangular structure smaller.  Changing the rectangle's walls sets the jutting wall back to where it was before I made the change.  Unfortunately, I can't demonstrate this dynamically, but you can see in the attached jpegs that the long wall of the upper rectangle has moved away from the point of convergence of the 2 long walls.  The short, jutting wall snaps to the length I set, but it doesn't move the free end, it moves the attached end.  Selecting and dragging the end of the jutting wall doesn't allow me to set the length precisely as I want.  Selecting the dimension and changing it moves the wall to which the one whose length I set is attached.

I'm old (retired, 65 yo) and not as sharp as I was in my 20's when I wrote my first software, but this program behaves in a way that puzzles this old cowboy who's been to many a rodeo before and never seen anything behave in this manner.

ps:  When I posted this thread originally, I hadn't seen the "Looking for Help" forum topic.  Because it's posted in the wrong place to have value to other members, I hope an Admin will move it.  I won't cross post and waste the space. - rh

[mcpruitt]

1) / Double click on Wall / pop up allows you to enter dim . Can't be easier than that.

Z

Jack,

Each time I double click on a wall I get the properties for that wall.  I don't see a box to enter length.  Am I missing something?

MCP

[ahr8tch]

Here are step-by-step instructions that replicate what's driving me nuts. 

1) In a NEW project work space, select the WALL tool (any one will do) and draw a rectangle in roughly the ratio of the width twice the height.

2)  Using the SELECT tool, select the top wall to have the outer and inner vertical dimensions displayed.

3)  Click on the outer vertical dimension on the left side of the drawing and enter " 10' " in the Edit Dimension box and either press the Enter key or click the OK button.

4)  Select the vertical wall on the left side of the drawing to reveal the horizontal dimensions and click the bottom outer dimension then enter " 20' " in the Edit Dimension box and press Enter.

AT THIS POINT YOU SHOULD HAVE A STRUCTURE THAT SHOWS OUTER DIMENSIONS OF 10' (vertical) BY 20' (horizontal).

5) Select the WALL tool and draw a vertical wall near the lower left corner of the structure that protrudes from the lower, long horizontal wall about 1/3 the length of the 10' wall.  Click and continue drawing a section of wall toward the left edge of the screen making it turn 90 degrees and stop making its length end approximately even with the 10' side of the structure.  (You should have something that looks similar to Example A.)

6)  Select the vertical wall segment below the 20' horizontal wall to reveal the dimensions and click on the dimension for the distance between the end of the rectangular structure and the edge of the vertical wall segment and enter " 3' " in the Edit Dimensions box and click OK.

7)  Select the bottom horizontal wall segment to reveal the dimensions and click on the dimension for the distance between the bottom of the rectangular structure and the bottom horizontal wall segment and enter " 3' " in the Edit Dimensions box and click OK.

  Select the 3' vertical wall segment to reveal the horizontal dimensions and click on the dimension showing the distance between the end of the bottom horizontal wall and the left edge of the vertical wall segment and enter
" 3' " in the Edit Dimensions box and click OK.

OBSERVE THAT THE 3' VERTICAL WALL SEGMENT MOVES AND THE LEFT END OF THE HORIZONTAL 3' WALL SEGMENT STAYS IN PLACE. 

[ahr8tch]

For mcpruitt.

Try single clicking a wall segment and it should turn green to highlight it and display dimensions for other segments in blue.  If you double click, you get the properties box with a diagram and picture and five tabs:  Basic/Top and Bottom/Trim/Appearance/Quantity.  No box pops up to enter a dimension in unless you click on one of the linear dimensions then whatever you enter in the Edit Dimensions box that appears will apply to the dimension you chose and the wall it represents.  The problem I have is that the I can't predict which wall is gonna move to make the dimension fit the rule set in the Edit Dimensions box.  Try the steps I outlined in my post with step-by-step instructions and you should see what I'm referring to.

I tried to take a screenshot of a drawing showing the single click results but haven't been successful yet.  If you use the File/Export commands the dimensions and selection highlighting disappear in the resulting file.

hth
rh

[Jack Zimmer]

Sorry, it's the Dimension that is associated with the wall selected that you click on to get the Pop Up, then change that dimension.   

Z

[Jack Zimmer]

That is the way is should work. When you select the vertical wall it is the wall that will move.

Did you expect the horizontal wall end to move? I don't understand the problem.

Could you draw up what you want for a final result? Are you trying to adjust the length of the Horizontal wall to a specific length?

[ahr8tch]

No doubt, the program works as designed.  I just don't understand why anyone would have designed it that way.  It is counter to what most of us are familiar with from other software.

I don't know how to make the problem more apparent than I described in the step-by-step process described above.

What I'm trying to do is draw 2 rectangular structures with long sides at 90 degrees to each other but not tangent whose nearest walls are connected by 2 walls of equal length such that the short wall sections (which are 1' wide) are 6 feet from the ends of each rectangle at their furthest point (5' at their closest point). If you follow those steps, setting the dimensions after drawing the walls, the problem should be apparent.

The behavior of the dimensioning process is so different from the FP3D behavior that it's maddening and there is no helpful information to tell me how to adapt.  I end up changing the dimensions of 2 or more walls instead of just the one dimension that needs changing, and I've been unable to discern how selecting a specific wall or a specific dimension will achieve the desired result.

[Jack Zimmer]

I've gone through your steps but you leave out the one that is bugging you. I understand the layout but not the final wall result you are looking for. Where is it breaking down?

Are you having trouble getting the last wall to fall one foot short of the corner?

Have you tried the Commander input method of setting the last walls length? This must be done while drawing it. If the wall exists and is not part of an enclosed area (a wall ending in space) you must use other methods to define it's length accurately. But I'm not sure if that is what your talking about.

Z

[ahr8tch]

Hi Jack!

We must be having a communications disconnect.

Yes.  I'm trying the draw the last little piece of horizontal wall that connects only to the vertical short wall and make it exactly the same length as the segment of the lower, long horizontal wall of the rectangular structure that projects to the left of the short vertical wall that projects toward the bottom and connects to the short horizontal wall that is otherwise not connected to anything.

Every other piece of drawing software - whether modeling or CAD - that I've ever used would adjust the length of the line whose dimension one changes, not move another line that it is connected to.  I'm no pro, and I've never done this for a living, I just find the behavior of TFP strange in this respect.

I'll turn the Commander mode on and see if I can learn something

[Jack Zimmer]

I can't find a way to set a wall to a specific length once it has been drawn that is not part of an enclosed space.

The Commander will do that if the wall is drawn from scratch, so that would be the simplist solution, but once drawn if you right click and choose 'Lengthen' the Commander only represents the change in length from the Center Line of the adjacent wall. To active the Commander you first must select a reference point and enter the length from that point.

 It is quite the 'mess'.


If I had to get a specific length I'd select a wall from the catalog, right click , select Insertion Offset and enter needed length of the horizontal wall, drawing the wall perpendicular to the horizontal wall length needed' attaching that wall to the wall parallel to the horizontal . Then use the notation line tool to snap a line to the end node of the of this offset wall , delete the drawn wall, leaving the line remaining which is set to the distance required. Finally drag the horizontal wall and snap it to the line, resulting in a wall of the length needed.

This takes me about 25 seconds.

It would better if they could make the Commander adjust the wall without requiring adding 1/2 of the wall width to the Commander Distance field.

If I find any other way , I'll be sure to post it.

Z

[ahr8tch]

Thanks, Jack.

Thought for awhile there that I was having an attack of Alzheimers. 

I activated the commander feature and found another anomaly that I can't understand.  When I draw a new wall perpendicular to one of the existing walls of the rectangle and specify its length (19' 2") then set the dimension by selecting the new wall and changing the dimension from it to the end of the rectangle, somehow the length of the just-drawn wall segment gets changed to 18' 8".  It appears that the length I set measures from the middle of the wall to which I attached the new segment.  This only happens on one particular wall.  I can draw and set the length as desired on other walls; so I don't think that there is a global setting (like dimensioning from the center, rather than the edge, of walls).  I'm still playing around with it and will report back if I discover (as in a blind squirrel finds an acorn) anything.

Looks to me like the product manager and hackers are gonna be plenty busy.