Radiosity Rendering Black

[alindsay55661]

I am getting very bizzare rendering problems where lots of my elements will be black.  The walls seem to be fine but the elements are very dark.  Also, I have some sheer drapes which are semi transparent and they also render transparent black when using radiosity.  Any ideas on the fix for this?

[alindsay55661]

By the way, I am using v12.

[Allan Chesney]

Alan,

You have run into one of the known bugs in TFP.  This is an issue under certain circumstances with radiosity and they are trying to sort it out. The problem I have been having is the opposite of yours though - I have pitch black walls but everthing else is OK. There were some improvements in the patch released recently but still some issues remain. See the post at http://forum.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,522.0.html where a number of the remaining issues with the update a listed.

You said you are using V12 - I assume by that you meant V12.0 (not the update - V12.1)? Are these effects repeatable?  For instance, when you have a new model of just a 4 wall room with some of your 'black' elements (eg curtains), do they again render black? Since I am getting the reverse of your output (at least with the walls), would you mind posting your BLD file so I can try it out?  I am trying to track down what is causing these issues, so this may help. Also could you post one of you images that demonstrate the problem so I can compare it with my output from your file.

I have tried rendering the sheer curtains in V12.1 and it also renders black (even when set to 100% emissive!).  In V12.0 you can change the Emissive setting to greater than 0% and they will render white (see http://forum.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,458.0.html) but they will no longer render white in V12.1 apparently.  The render process has definitely changed in V12.1. While the Radiosity render proceeds in V12.0 you see the sheer and solid curtains develop progressively but in V12.1 only the sheer curtains appear during the Radiosity and the solid curtains only appear during the Raytrace step.  Strange!

Allan

[alindsay55661]

Here is an example of the black window treatments that should be white.  I am have also included the source file so you can check it for yourself.

[alindsay55661]

Here is an example where everything turns black.  All you have to do i move the camera around in 3d mode until you notice the ceiling turn brighter.  Then when you go to render everything comes out black except the walls.  I did not create a camera point for this shot because you can see the problem by moving the camera yourself and watching for the ceiling to change color.

Let me know if you want anything else to troubleshoot.  I am using the latest patch for the interior design version.  12.01

[Allan Chesney]

Alan,

Well I had no problems at all with your file. Everything rendered correctly.  The only time I noticed any change in the ceiling going birghter was when the camera was actually inside the wall.  The ceiling did become flat white then but the rendering was still correct so I cannot explain that one.

I did change the lights to my recessed ones as yours created bright flares on the ceiling (normally a downlight would not directly illuminate the ceiling) but it did not have any effect on other things. The curtains still rendered black even with the Emissive settings raised.(See image)

I plan to do some more testing on this to see if I can find anything else unusual.

Allan

[alindsay55661]

Allan,

Thanks for checking this out.  I will look into the camera inside the wall issue.  Although your renders worked in the situation it makes sense that everything would be black  .

Also, how do I make the recessed lights like yours?  The illumination on the ceiling is very distracting but I choose the lowest wattage possible and it still causes a problem.

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Alan,

I am still testing your file - it is behaving quite different to my standard files.  When I render yours it looks like the image in my previous post but if I create a new project using the same walls, a window and recessed lights, the lights GO OUT as soon as the light comes in through the window and all I get is window light in the room.  If I turn the sun off the lights stay on.  I am trying to find out why your model is allowing lights and sun on together.  Found nothing yet!

What was the light you originally used?  I just used the Recessed Light from the Ceiling Lights group.  You can set the light values very low, not just the standard selections - just double click everything - you will be surprised how far things go.   You can get down to fractions of a watt if necessary by setting the Scale of a very low wattage bulb.

Allan

[alindsay55661]

That is interesting.  I did play around with the location and time settings.  Currently I have everything to 1PM in petaluma california.  I get a few renders that had more sunlight and also shut the lights off.  For a while I was rendering a very nice natural light that illuminated the room quite well with all the interior lights off.  Now if I turn the lights off its very dark in the room even with the setting at 1pm!

This all seems like hit or miss, you just have to tweak the program until you get what you are after.  It would be nice if there were more predictability.

I am using 8 watt recessed lights that came in the catalog, nothing special there.  But they still light up the ceiling unlike your model.  I am not sure what the difference is other than I used the Interior Design program to create the model and I think you are using the pro version that includes landscaping.  Seems like they would use the same rendering engine though...

[Surfer_Gurl]

I'm having this same problem, and I thought it was just my inexperience... glad I'm reading these posts to learn more!
I have an outdoor brick planter, with a taller, narrower brick 'tower' in the middle, that has a lantern on it.  I drew all bricks from same wall, just adjusted height. The shorter planter renders correctly, the tower is black.  I used the maximum settings I can find to render, and did the radiosity (I know I'm not using these words grammatically correctly yet... give me time... I'm learning as fast as I can!)
If you tell me how, I'd be happy to send you the file.
Thanks again for your time

[Allan Chesney]

Welcome to the world of rendering fun!!! It can be fun and very frustrating too at times!!  I know they programmers are aware of the issues and are working on it but in the meantime it is all about work-arounds!!

First you can post the file (as long as it is under 4MB) by clicking the Additional Options... link below the entry box.  Just Browse to the file and add it. Click More Attachments if you want to add an image (or 3). Best when you do a render to do the save as a jpg and make the size of the image small (640x480 is usually ample on the Forum unless a lot of detail has to be shown). I usually test with a custom setting of 320x240 so that it is quick, then unlarge when I am happy with the lighting etc.

Re your current problem.  Without seeing the file it sound like you have a planter box that is 4 walls and hence a 'room'.  This would mean that it will see the outside of the box as 'external' and will use the walls External settings, hence brick.  Again I am guessing that you have made the pillar by changing the thickness of a single piece of wall.  If that is what you have done, then, with the present bug, it will see that as on Interior wall (a single piece of wall) and make it black.  To get it to render correctly, make the pillar out of 4 walls - it will see them as making a room and turn the Exterior into your brick and the interior black (unless you put a light INSIDE the pillar or course!!!!).  You will also find that the Columns render OK.

In the image I have 4 brick walls making a room in the background - they have become Exterior walls so render OK. The bit of wall that sticks out of the corner has become an Interior wall with baseboard and the wall surface has rendered black.  The single piece of wall that has also become black as a result of the bug but the end and baseboad render OK (it is only the wall surfact that is affected).   The brick pillar is from the Columns selection.

Generally you will find that the Basic render is all you need for exterior rendering and in this type of situation they will render correctly.  Radiosity involves light reflecting off other things and it does the most realistic rendering of inside views - much better than Basic inside. Outside it has the black wall issue that hopefully will be fixed soon.  Where you have combination of inside and outside in the same view is when you have real problems.

Allan

[Surfer_Gurl]

I rendered without radiosity, and it looks good.  As soon as I can figure out how to save the render, I'll attatch it.

[Surfer_Gurl]

Gee, it's amazing how easy it is to learn when you read the help file!  Here are four pics; first is facing south, rendered, second is with radiosity. Third is facing north rendered, fourth is with radiosity.  I know, I know, I don't need to use radiosity, but I just built a blazing Quad Core, and it is really fast!

[Doug.S]

If you need to "fix" a render.....don't forget you can "adjust" a rendered image (better to use .bmp than .jpg) in Photoshop or similar pixel program...

either directly adjust the image or even consider using parts of a basic render layered with a radiosity render...using the best parts of each for your desired effect.

Sometimes its easier and faster to "doctor" an image rather than trying to make TFP render what you want...not only for lighting but also for textures or plants etc.  Even people images can be inserted after the render is made.  Lots of people images available from SketchUp for architectural "scale".

Use everything in your bag of tricks and tools to solve problems...think outside the TFP "box" too.

[Surfer_Gurl]

Simple and brilliant, Doug!  Photoshop is a great idea!  Thanks for the tip.