Export - BMP - RGB - TFP pixel size not square.

[360texas]

Greetings - this my first post

Observation: TurboFloorplan bitmap pixels are not square

For the last 10 years we have taken panorama imaging for display on the internet.  Sometimes photographers use floor plans with room/ area clickable hotspots to display our panorama imaging.  This means we have to create floor plan drawing, then export it to a RGB 24bit bitmap image larger than 1024 x 768.  I have done this couple times now.

Next step is to load this exported floor plan image into Adobe Photoshop CS3.  The image is 1024 x 768 RGB 24bit BMP.  CS3 reports that the image is in 8bits /RGB color channel which is consistent with 24bit stack (8bit Red, 8bit Green, 8bit Blue).  The TFP paper manual page 310 says 'or True Color (32bit).   32 bit is 8bit x3 = 24 for RGB +another alpha transparant 8 bit channel makes it 24 rgb +8 transparent channel = 32bit.  Could not find True Color in the list.   Transparent background would be handy because we use translucent overlays in our Adobe Flash presentations.  AND its only 30 pixels per inch resolution.

When loading this 24bit floor plan image into PSCS3 I get an error saying

"Pixel aspect ratio correction is for preview purposes only.  Turn it off for maximum image quality."

Initial view of the floorplan image appears correct.  The floor plan width and height seem the same in TFP as in PSCS3.  The pixel aspect ratio becomes evident when
attempting to rotate the image 90

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Dave (I assume),

Welcome to the TFP Forum!

What you are doing is probably beyond my technical skills but I did create an absolutely square plan, exported it as 16 and 24 Bit, opened them in PaintShop Pro and rotated them 90 degrees.  Both were still exactly square visually and by measurement.

I know PSP is not quite as elaborate as PhotoShop but I could not see any problem.

Re transparent background - could you use the DXF export for that purpose?

I will be looking forward to seeing examples of how you are using TFP. It is always good to see something different.

EDIT: I had a bit of a look at PhotoShop at work and I think what you are seeing is a Preview of the image as it would appear on a TV. It can be adjusted for various TV screen resolutions so you can see what would happen to the image if used on TV. The effect could simply be turned off on the View menu and once it was turned off it behaved exactly the same way it does in PaintShop Pro - it remained square. Zooming right in to the individual pixels in PSP showed they were square.  I have rotated plans many times in PaintShop Pro without any issues.  PSP does not seem to have the option to 'Preview as on a TV' as PhotoShop does so I had not experienced this before.

Allan 

[360texas]

Hi Allan,

I will recreate the issues and try some screen captures and put them here so you can see the 90

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Dave,

Interesting presentation - ideal for a real estate site to give such excellent views of the house.  The presetnation reminds me of the MOV file generated by previous versions of FloorPlan.  It gives a similar 360 degree view - up and down too if zoomed before saving.  I have attahed a zipped version for your interest. (Forum wont accept the MOV extension).

The current version only does an AVI movie - still very good but creates a very large file.  The MOV file was small and gives an excellent 360 degree view. (requires Quicktime)

Allan

[360texas]

Yes, exactly.. autstrailinxxx.zip.  is same type of projection... except yours is a cylinder with Quick Time Virtual Reality projection.  Hopkies original imaging was done with a digital single lens reflex camera and a Sigma 8mm Fisheye lens - 4 images at 90

[Allan Chesney]

Dave,

I do a lot of image editing but dont know much about the panorama technicalities so I have a question - you said the FP MOV projects to a cylinder. Would that be right as the view can be moved vertically also to see the ceiling and floor? That is not possible in the one I posted as  I purposely did not create it that way. I do not do that because  it then opens with a full 180 degree view and the user has to zoom in first to see a normal perspective. Some do not understand that so it saves confusion!

My wife might balk at Cambodia but if you are looking for someone to tour Australian resorts for you just let us know!

Allan
Perth, Australia

[Doug.S]

I seem to recall that you can set the parameters in setup for .mov files in FP to set the zoom to default to a more zoomed-in value for wide angle views so the user, viewing, does not have to zoom-in when file opens....check the setup values before running the .mov render. 

I used pano2qtvr before with Carrara but it was a while back. They have a free version which does a great job. 
As I recall I did some work with files to convert for use with HDR images for render lighting....but I'd have to go back and see what I did over the last couple years.  Also made, I think, a blend of several wide angle inside room views to generate a .mov like we were able to do in FP by exporting from TFP to Carrara.

What ever it was, it was easy to do and on my desktop I left a "droplet" so I could simply drag a file onto the desktop icon to activate the program.  Gosh my memory is slow on this one....so if you have more questions I'll have to "research" my brain a bit.

Also I used Carrara to generate .avi or .mov files to make a birds eye fly-around the exterior....simple camera fly around a circle path with camera pointed at the house center....a FP export file to Carrara....but that can now be done in TFP directly as I recall with animation tools in TFP.

Photoshop can use non-square pixels for video work or conversions to/from video images and stills to correct for proper display or to deal with stretched HD images that may be non-square....but I never had to do anything like that using FP or TFP renders.  Accidentally opening a file in Ps and having the pixels set to non-square would distort a square pixel image tho.

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Doug,

I think as you said that Dave must have had the PS set to compensate for non-square pixels as I have not had any issues with plans or images.

Re the MOV file - I hope they bring it back or even make the Radiosity render of the model available to save in some reusable format. As it is you can move around it now, but it only saves it after raytracing - you dont get the 3D version like we used to be able to do when FP used Lightscape. I wonder if it does have it in a Temp file somewhere?

The AVI movie is good but for decent resolution the file size is too big. I did one recently that was over 200 MB.  I am about to try it in Flash. An initial quick test yesterday looks promising.

Allan

[360texas]

Hi Doug S. and Allan

Yes I know about pano2qtvr.  Thomas (Garden Gnome Software owner - programmer) started that one few years ago.  Pano2VR is its successor.  We are forum moderator for Pano2VR, Pano2qtvr and Pano2qtvr -Flash.   Pano2VR will export to both QTVR .mov  and  Flash .swf

OK.. what I was seeing appeared to be a cylinder projection. Seeing the intial view (no zoom in) I was not able to mouse up or down.  After zooming in I was able to tilt up/down.  I was going to convert your Austrail_Teal.mov to Flash .swf and return it to you for your flash use.  It seems however, you apparantly have protected the file.  Which is a good business practice.


We can do the same in pano2VR  either cylinder or spherical 360

[360texas]

Allan,  above you mentioned

Re transparent background - could you use the DXF export for that purpose?

Hmm  I thought DXF  means data exchange file and that .dxf were actually text files containing lines of element desciptions for lines and objects.  I remember moving dxf files between IMSI Floorplan Plus (have to get in your "WAY Back" machine to remember that one) and Autocad.

Before I retired in 1999, I worked with the Corps of Engineers for 37 years as a high stressed Construction Contract Negotiator.  I quickly found that retiring does not mean you stop working... still get up at 6am, but I choose what to declare as "important work".  All that means is coaching other photographers in panorama photography,  moderating a couple panorama software forums.  Oh yes, we have 3 or 4 paying projects each year to help fund the computers, software, cameras and website.  I think we are having fun now.

I was thinking about a 24bit transparent PNG file.

[Doug.S]

Hi Doug,
Re the MOV file - I hope they bring it back or even make the Radiosity render of the model available to save in some reusable format. As it is you can move around it now, but it only saves it after raytracing - you dont get the 3D version like we used to be able to do when FP used Lightscape. Allan

You can accomplish it in TFP based on same idea I can easily do using Carrara...see text tut below. Probably have to render several wide angle images and photo-merge together to make a pano image, then use pano2qtvr to generate a .mov file.
See attached .zip of a test .mov file from Carrara (lighting was a bit dark tho) using a spherical camera which obviates the intermediate step of making a pano via photo-merge several views....but I have done that too using a set of actual photos (360 degree view)

================
You cannot create a QTVR direct out of Carrara. Here are the steps you should follow:

1. Place a spherical camera on the scene and set (in the motion tab on the right) the x rotation of the spherical-camera to 90 deg (VERY IMPORTANT!!!!) so that it is looking at the horizon of the scene.
2. Set the render size (in the render room) to a 2:1 ratio for example 800px X 400px. Save the render to a JPG file. Make sure you select the spherical camera for your render. Making the final render larger will yield much better quality from the sample file below.
3.1 Download and install Pano2QTVR from www.pano2qtvr.com. The program is free for personal use. If some else know of a free program let me know.
3.2 Alternatively you can also use ImmerVision G2 Panorama FileBuilder. If you look at the www.immervision.com website. I can't seem to find it anymore because when I downloaded it a while back it was free. It is a cool program because it also let you add a lensflare effect to your renders. I will have a look to see if I still might have the download somewhere.
4. After installation drag and drop your rendered JPG image onto the Pano2QTVR droplet.
5. You should now have your QTVR mov.

Yes, you set the rendering dimensions at 2H:1V. The easiest way to
position the spherical camera is to first use a conical camera to aim
to the point you want to see in the QTVR opening view, and then reset
that camera as spherical. Check your position parameters to make sure
it is level.

I suggest .bmp as the image format because pano2qtvr, using PanoTools,
will reprocess it into 6 cubic faces, which combine as a .mov file
cubic QTVR. I think the pano2qtvr script of the free version allows
you to set image compression for those faces (not at my own computer
at the moment).

I also suggest you render a very large spherical cam output if you
want detail. I can see no compromise in quality compared to using
original cubic face renderings with GoCubic, when the spherical
original is large enough. However, the QTVR I posted is really too
heavy for anything but broadband because there is no compression. I'm
taking it down soon.

You'll have to install PanoTools to your root directory if you have
not done so already. The file path to PT does not tolerate any spaces,
so don't install to the "Program Files" directory.
========================

[Jack Zimmer]

This is an extremely low quality conversion of TFPlan avi to WMV (windows media file).  If you create a circular path, increase your camera angle and increase the 'seconds' of each view, you can get a Panorama view 'movie' from TFPlan.

I would normaly convert it to FLV for website use via Camtasia. If you want to use Real View rendering it takes quite a long time to render each frame. In this example two lights are added and no rendering is used. The user has no control over what they are seeing other than to play the movie, but you can give that Panorama affect.

Jack

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Dave, Doug and Jack,

I will comment on the last 3 posts at once. Did a real long reply using my phone on a long train trip earlier and accidentally pressed the Back key and lost it all!!!  So will start again - more briefly, now I am home.

Dave - my comment about using a DXF file for the transparent plan was based on the understanding I had, that PhotoShop could open a 2D DXF as a vector image. I have no idea now where I got that from, so I may be mistaken!  I don't have PhotoShop so I can't test it - maybe you can try it and dispel the viscious rumour (or establish it).  I was only able to check out the 'square' pixel issue the other day, as one of the contractors at work had a laptop with PS on with him that day.

Doug, Jack - my desire to have the MOV option back again was because it was so quick, simple and small file size for excellent quality. I have used the TFP AVI movie to simulate the 360 degree view and this works quite well and converts to Flash OK too but the problem is it just plays and that is it.  The MOV causes people to move it around and it seems interactive.

However what I would really like to do, is to be able to use the radiosity file that is created during the Advanced render. The full model is available while the render window is open and you can walk around it, rotate it etc, etc but is lost when you close the window. Only in RAM presumably - unless you know if there is a temp file somewhere that gets rewritten - like there was in FloorPLan in the Lightscape days.  The problem then would be the viewer.

I know VRML sort of does this but again is a big file and poor quality. Having said that I have not tried the TFP version. Is it any better?

Never satisfied are we!

Allan

[360texas]

With Photoshop CS3, I searched for .dxf in the help and it returned with the following

Photoshop Extended users can also measure objects in an image, and export 3D information and measurements to DXF and 3DS formats for use in 3D applications.

Topic: Retouching and transforming / Vanishing Point

Export measurements, textures, and 3D information:
 
3D information (planes), textures, and measurements created in Vanishing Point can be exported to a format for use in CAD, modeling, animation, and special effects applications. Exporting to DXF creates a file with 3D information and any measurements. Exported 3DS files contain rendered textures in addition to the geometric information.

1. Open the Vanishing Point menu and choose either Export to DXF or Export To 3DS.
2. In the Export DXF or Export 3DS dialog box, select a location for the saved file and click Save.

For a video on using Vanishing Point, see http://www.adobe.com/go/vid0019    This is a short tutorial on vanishing point from Adobe.

Unfortunately it uses the vanishing point feature for DXF usage is only in Photoshop CS3 EXTended version.

I am not using the EXTended version - too expensive.

[Doug.S]

However what I would really like to do, is to be able to use the radiosity file that is created during the Advanced render. The full model is available while the render window is open and you can walk around it, rotate it etc, etc but is lost when you close the window. Allan

I agree with your guess and think (no real knowledge on this) that the window controls for changing the rendered view are the same as for the screen lo-res 3D preview and thus there is an internal calculation for display refresh based on cursor tool action...thus no "file" exported....but of course a programmer could do so.

If you render 4 radiosity images (one facing each of the four walls), then combine these into one .bmp per the text tut above and drop onto pano2qtvr, you will get what you want.   You can do more renders and play with camera FOV angle to capture more or less of the ceiling/floor and get better or less resolution.....but 4 views make it easy to align the walls at the corners without much effort. 

If the scene render vertical coverage is insufficient, the .mov file will show white where there is no image...such as if you zoom-in in the .mov and try to look straight up at the ceiling or straight down at the center of the floor....but for typical rooms, the white is not a problem to most viewers...unless you were trying to look at a beamed ceiling for example....but that can be overcome by ensuring adequate camera view render coverage.....point camera up and down....then merge all images so you have 360 degree coverage both horizontally and vertically......this is where a photo-merge image program is so valuable to make the blending of many images together easily.

Maybe if I find time I'll generate an example using TFP radiosity renders.  Pano2qtvr .mov files sizes are comparable to the .mov file sizes directly from FP.

With your skills, the creation of a .mov file will be quite easy.