Why am I paying to alpha test V14?

[wobblycogs]

 

I'm hoping someone from IMSI can explain to me why I've just shelled out good money to test the alpha quality build of TFP V14 I've just bought and installed?

I've had V14 running for about 30 minutes and it's already locked up (100% processor usage) a dozen times. Nearly everything that I touch causes a failure. The most reproducable failure is with the new room measuring tool, if I attempt to edit the name before I've selected a room it always locks up. Even after it's put into the room though it locks up if I try to make any modifications to the stupidly large text etc etc.

To really rub salt into the wound though this pile of the proverbial won't even start up without locking up. The only way to start it is to double click an existing TFP file! I'm currently downloading build 637 in the hope that it will fix at least some of the problems in shipping 624.

Actually, while I'm into rubbing salt into the wounds I read that the rendering issues haven't been sorted out in V14 - that was one of my primary reasons for upgrading as I've only ever managed to get a couple of rendering out of V12. I suspect I will be demanding a refund for this rubbish in the not to distant future, that should be fun.

[Allan Chesney]

Hi. Welcome to the Forum.

I am not from IMSI but may be able to throw some light on the situation.

The Cause:
Imagine that you buy a little Hyundai Getz (I suppose it has that name where you are) but find it accidentally was delivered with a  Formula 1, Farrari engine!  How do you think it would go?  Since the Hyundai is not made to cope with a Farrari engine you would probably crash on even very slight turns.  Unfortunately that is what happened with the initial release of V14 - it was accidentally delivered to IMSI with a default template, or something like that, from Envisioneer 5 (its parent program, worth around $2,000) and some PCs could not handle it.

On my laptop it crashed on small hills and very slight curves in the road but on my deskptop only the tightest hairpin bend caused a crash on just a couple of occasions. I was nice to try out the Farrari but not in the Hyundai body.  Each is fine for its own purpose.

The solution:
The update to 637 that you said you were doing, should fix it, and, as IMSI Design point out on their website, it fixes problems editing a V12 file and removes the functionality that should not have been there (the Farrari engine!). It should now be a normally functioning Hyundai.  In some circumstances, such as going up a steep hill, like any car, it does not like 'overdrive', so you may need to turn Hareware Acelleration off for some processes.

Text Size:
Anywhere in the program, text size, dimensions and dimension lines etc are all totally editable - in most cases you just double click the object.   EDIT:  Seems there may be a bug in the Room 'Settings' tab.  Causes a freeze if you try to change the text on this one.  Evisioneer 5 has the same problem!

Rendering:
Yes it is dissappointing that some of the rendering issues have not been fixed yet, but they haven't on the Farrari yet either, so it is obviously not a simple issue.  Excellent rendering is still possible however, as the image below and posts in the forum Gallery and eleswhere in the forum testify.  If you are having specific issues then just ask about them, as I have been able to address all the ones ones I have found so far.

Paying for alpha testing:
Whether you are paying for alpha testing is questionable.  At around $99US (or $49 for an upgrade), I don't think you can expect a Farrari, and you haven't got one, but you have a very good Hyundai.  My personal opinion is that this program is probably underpriced for what it is capable of doing and for the limited market to which it caters.  It is tremendously complex underneath, yet cheaper to buy than the mass market Microsoft Word that just processes words (and other fiddly bits that few people use).   If TFP was to receive the money and testing the Microsoft put into their products (and STILL have bugs and crashes) then you would really have a Farrari.  I guess a few bugs are to be expected or else we would all have to pay a whole lot more!

Hope you enjoy your new Hyundai now that it has the right engine!!

Allan

[wobblycogs]

I understand what you are saying, I own and run a software development company so I know a lot about bugs. I will live with a few minor bugs (especially if they have a work around) but to ship a product that crashes left right and centre is not really acceptable. I would be ashamed to ship something this bad. Having said that installing build 637 did improve matters.

To use your car analogy: you go to the garage and shell out your hard earned money on a new car, you get a good deal but you still had to pay for it. You drive it 100 metres down the road and it breaks down. Would you sit there and say to yourself "hey I got a good deal so I'll live with it" or would you take it back and ask for it to be fixed or to be given a refund? Just because it's software it doesn't excuse it not working correctly.

As for rendering, the original 624 build couldn't even get as far a opening the rendering dialog before crashing. Build 637 on the other hand produces some nice renders (something I could never get working on my laptop).

Considering how much I paid for it I'm happy to submit bug reports and, I hope, any reports I submit would be useful. What I would ask in return though is that a proper public bug tracker is set up (Bugzilla for example) and we get real feedback and progress on fixing some of the bugs. Since TFP is built on Envisioneer hopefully this process would feedback into their high end products too. I would, I think, be win win.

[Allan Chesney]

Glad to hear the 637 is working better for you and rendering better and, yes I agree, that software should work. Not much use if it doesn't!

I am not exactly sure of the precise relationship of TFP V14 and Envisioneer 5. It was released a week or two earlier but may even be a previous verion of Envisioneer, in some areas, although the appearance of both changed at the same time.  They look 'identical' and will open each other's files, although TFP cannot always edit everything.  Theoretically Envisioneer comes first and TFP inherits the functionality and fixes, so the bugs identified by Envisionner users have in the past flowed on to us in a later update or version.

To get bugs indentified in TFP actioned, I have undertaken to test any bugs reported on the forum by TFP users and, if they prove to be a bug (not just a user error or user inexperience), I will pass them on to IMSI Design, who will inturn submit them to CADSoft.  I will see if we can get some feedback too but this may not be straight forward due to the fact that the fix would be in Envioneer, by another company and may not be applied to TFP until a patch (if urgent) or a new version was being prepared. Anyway I will see what can be done to get some feedback.

Please report any bugs and also, if you see some ways the program could be enhanced, then that would be good to know too. Generally both are reported in the Feature Requests section. While enhancements are naturally desired, they will presumably be tempered by Envisioneer, since TFP would obviously not be allowed to eclipse the parent product. If the enhancement is not already in Envisioneer, then presumably it would be applied there first and we would inherit it later. That's the problem with being the poor cousin to a Farrari!

EDIT: By the way, there is a bug on the change text size etc. on the Room Settings tab.  Text settings elsewhere seem to be OK but this one causes a freeze and Envisioneer 5 has the same issue.

All the best with the program and the renderings. Later on, when you are happy with them, you may want to share some renderings on the forum.

Regards,
Allan

[wobblycogs]

Thanks, I'll see what I can do regarding writing up any issues I find. It looks like I was unlucky and one of the first things I tried out had a bug. An unfortunate initial user experience.

If both the current Envisioneer and TFP can open each others files they are almost certainly the same piece of software under the hood. Anything else would require some seriously complex and error prone translations of file formats in at least one direction. Much simpler to just disable the more complex / expensive functionality.

There is a one feature I really hope they have added to V14 but I haven't had a chance to find out if it's there yet. I could never get a quarter turn at the top of a flight of stairs without having another step after the turn. I'll give it a shot tonight and post my results if I can't get it to work, hopefully someone will be able to tell me how it's done (or even if it can be done).

[Allan Chesney]

Let us know how you get on with the stairs.  I hardly ever use them - the majority of houses in Australia are just single storey. We have lots of space so tend to go sideways instead of up, although the inner city areas are starting to go up in recent years.  If you can't get the stairs to do what you want I will have a look at it, but you may know more about steps than I do.

Allan

[awninstall]

I was reviewing this Thread and don't know you guys are talking about 637 Build.  What is that?

I hav't had any crashes since I upgraded my computer size to 450mb ram and new pt 4 .

I just wish that as you learn the program which additional help such as there could be a simple set up and explanation as you use the program such as the nudge feature. At first tried to do with the mouse then I find there is a arrow nudge and then the nudge can be set.   If you had dialog box that made you define thing you were know as you go through and learn to set the different defaults.  The way IMSI designs its programs not just this program - You try to do something and just doesn't work and you find a default setting on somthing that you having even learned about.

Knowlege is built on words, meanings and definitions.  More defined on a gradient the better. There seems to be some idea to have a quick start. Which is fine but there should be dialog box that you then define options and setting and a problem help or dialog tells you what are the options or consquences of chooing one or the other .

Just my thought.
William

[Allan Chesney]

Hi William,

It certainly is not easy trying to pick up some new software and feel comfortable.  The first thing I did when I received the program was to read the User Guide from cover to cover - all 300+ pages. Quite a task but worth the effort - at least you know what it could do - you just had to remember whete to do it later!!

What I always suggest to new users it to go to Settings/Program Settings and read every option on every tab. That way you know what the defaults are and what you can change if it does not seem to work they way you prefer. At leaset you know what can be changed even if you do not actually change anything the first time around. Also good to study the Building Locations and Dimensions dialog boxes too - also in Settings.

This version has gone much further than previous ones to assist new ones, with the automatic Tutor you can turn on that explains how to use many of the tools and the various Wizards. The User Guide and Help is very comprehensive really compared to some software I have used and compared to previous versions but a shame that there is a bug in the Help that causes the help menu toolbar to dissappear at times, making the Search not available.  You can search in the User Guide using Alt F.

637 is just the final part of the version number: V14.0.C1.637.

Allan

[awninstall]

Dear Alan,

Thanks.

The number must be computer software speak give the version final number.  My radar doesn't go that far.

I read the most of the whole manuel through when I first got it.  I have Turbo cad also so was somewhat familier with the idea.  The tutor does not seem to come on at all, unless its the ? mark on all the dialogs boxes as I when click the tutor either on the menu bar of or the toolbar nothing happens.

I will go through the dialog box as you suggest.  The biggest thing I am find furstrating is the task of learning and comparing things for the set up. like this explanation.

 "Number of steps. The number of times light is bounced in a scene during the radiosity process. Increasing this number may improve the lighting conditions in your rendered image, as well as its overall quality.

What is this the number of times light bounces.  Are we talking about reflections.  I thought the light bounces was a caculated item so would only change either in dark or sun.   I have one customer that I was trying to work out how many lights would be needed to light the back yard to the even flood,  If I knew the standard I would think with it easier.  I haven't even touched the steps button yet. 
Now I have to work out what would be true. 

Nothing worthwhile is easy.

William

[Allan Chesney]

Hi William,

You will find the build number at the end of the version number in Help/About.  637 is the latest - there were a number of issues with the first release (624).

The Tutor can be set to come on in the Help menu. The button will appear depressed it it is on.  The Tutor itself will only appear when you start to use one of the tools - eg the Surfaces tool.

Basic (raytrace) render is simply a calulation of the light values on a surface based on the light striking it from the various lights sources or reflecting off mirrors etc.  Radiosity also takes into account light as it bounces off (or is even absorbed by) walls, floors, ceilings etc. As the help says the number of steps is the number of bounces that you allow it to do. In reality light will bounce endlessly so the number of bounces is restricted otherwise rendering times will be very long. Personally I have never changed the default setting - most of the defaults in everything are fine for most normal situations.  From this you will realise that radiosity is used mainly for inside renders as there is little outside for light to bounce around in.

There are a number of older posts on the forum giving some rendering tests. You may find it helpfull to read those also.  Do a search on Radiosity and Raytrace should bring them up for you.

Allan

[awninstall]

Dear Alan,
I have been playing with the Advance render mode to find out what the problem is that I get error message and the computer stalls.  I sorted some things out, however when I do the render adance is very dark and the light achieves very little.  When do just the basic I it shows bright almost wahed out.  This is a huge difference.

I also put in the Motion sensor light but it only has one light rather then the two physically shown. It also seems to spray onto the wall its on rather then out like a flood would.  There does not seem to be a way to turn the bulbs outward like it a wall flood would.  Any ideas?


These are the codes I get in the window when it stalls.  I found the item that was causing it. It was an Awnings I used from the catelog and then made bigger and longer.  Kind of need this but trying to fiqure that out.   I reviewed all wall and floors and ceilings for breaks and then started removing items and testing.  After removing the awning the advanced render worked.  Still don't know what the codes mean.

Renderer:file parse error
File: Obj_920_2_0.ent
Line:<2487.092529-13615.480469 2729.954346 ><-1.#IND00-1#IND00 >
Line number : 5

Renderer:file parse error
File: Obj_920_2_0.ent
Line:<2487.092529-13615.480469 2739.954346 ><-1.#IND00-1#IND00 >
Line number : 5

[Allan Chesney]

Hi William,

It is very hard to be able to diagnose your lighting issues without seeing the settings you have in the Rendering dialog and the light fittings themselves. Any chance of posting the BLD file (or email it to me)?  This will make it much easier otherwise I am just guessing.

Radiosity rendering is not simple and requires some experimenting if the model is more than just a room or two with simple lights in them.  There are so many other factors that impact on the results.

The actual light is unrelated to the light fittings themselves. If you go to the light Properties and click the Lights tab, you will notice underneath the picture of the light fitting a red box.  This is what makes the light – nothing to do with the fitting. You will notice too that there are X-Y-Z settings for the light.  These will move the light source (the red box) in relation to the light fitting.  You could use this for example to move the light from your sensor light away from the wall so it is not creating too bright a spot on the wall.

You will notice too in this dialog and Add button.  This allows you to add another light source to the same fitting so that you have the two that the sensor light theoretically should have. The second one would have to be the same as the existing one so click Edit first to see which light is used, then select that same one from the hundreds that will appear, so that they match.  You will have to use the X-Y-Z settings again to position it.

There are hundreds of lights to choose from, all with different values and a few with different angles (a few uplights) but most are omnidirectional, so moving the light source from the light fitting achieves the effect. In the image attached, the light source for each light fitting is actually 1.5 metres ( nearly 5’) below the actual light fitting!  This stops the bright glow on the ceiling that you do not get from recessed fluro lights and provides even lighting thought the room.

The error messages you are getting to not really mean anything to the average user. The Obj_920_2_0.ent is indicating the particular element in the model that it was having issues with (the awning presumably) but that is only a debugging ID that programmers could use. Try inserting the awning again, or a copy of it. It will probably be OK.  Usually it is not the element that is the problem but how it connects (or disconnects!) with the rest of the model that is the problem. If not make a new version of it and try that. As a last resort make the awning out of something else.

Post or email you file and I will have a look at it.
Hope some of the above helps.

Allan

[awninstall]

Dear Allan thanks I will try the lights.  I used the XYz but just the middle,min I did not think of moving it out or down the distance you used.  The might make a difference.

I am doing an outside patio.  I built a house but mainly to get the patio.  I also built it as is with the additions to what I am going to propose, so no comments on any design.

I will try to add the element back but has been playing with the rendering and advance rendering.

It taks a bit for my computer to run through the advance render, so it has time consuming.
Thanks for the assistance.
William

[Allan Chesney]

Hi William,

Well I got the same parse error that you did and after deleting the awning it was fine.  I have replaced it with a sloping Surface.
I noticed that the file size was quite large and the render time quite long for what was there, so I had a look for anything unusual. 

The blinds were obviously SkethcUp objects and they has a lot of stray artifacts at one end which would have casued a big memory jump so I replaced them with two TFP boxes to make the shape and a similar fabric (then duplicated them).

I also replaced the wall lights with standard TFP ones - the ones you had were not in my catalogue (so I thought they may have been imported too) and were also elaborate in design (hence memory).  Replacing the blinds and lights reduced the file size to well under half what it was and then radioisity render took just 80 seconds.

Also I replaced the slab you had with a floor instead, so that it was possible to cut a hole in it for the swimming pool so that it sat in place correctly and I put a little bit of emmissive light in the water texture.

I've included the file again so you can see the changes.

Try rendering this one and see how it goes. you may want to experiment with the lights a little - I am not sure exactly what you are looking for in that regard.

Allan

[awninstall]

Dear Allan,

Sorry I did not get back faster, but appreciate what you did. The file advanced rendered in about 3 minutes;so much faster.  Huge difference and  the lightsillumination seem to more match the basic render.

Why would the slab not let the pool insert as opposed to the floor material.  Also what do you mean cut a hole in the floor.  What option is that I did not see that?

I did not realized that importing a sketch up would create soo much memory.  I knew the blinds had extra items to it but did not find anything close so pulled it from a manfacturer site.

I gues its better to make it from a shape as opposed to importing a sketch up item.

So, what do you think it was not rendering accurately because of to large a memory and conflicting building elements?

William