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Help needed to create a dormer roof of 3/12 from ridge to fascia
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* June 10, 2010, 06:33:54 PM
So my house has a dormer in the middle of the roof with no gable.  It is on a 3/12 pitch from the ridge to the fascia.  I am having trouble creating the side walls to work right.  See the pictures attached to get an idea what I mean.  Any ideas?

Joe


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* June 12, 2010, 09:52:15 PM
#1
Hi Joe,

Welcome to the forum!

Sorry about the delay in replying.  I was hoping someone who uses dormers may answer but it seems not.  You do not see them much in Australia so I use them little.  

I had a bit of a play with them and it worked fine for me.  On a test roof try the settings in the dialogs in the images and see how that goes.
Once you insert it you may have to lower thre Support Height on the front edge to raise the roof to meet the ridge.

Let us know how it goes.

Allan

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Allan Chesney,
Kalamunda, Perth, Western Australia
www.alchesdesigns.iinet.net.au

TurboFloorPlan Home and Landscape Pro V16.0.C1.901
Envisioneer Construction Suite V9.1.2.1234
TurboCAD V17 Professional


* June 15, 2010, 12:22:18 AM
#2
That did the trick.  Thanks! 

Unfortunately I can't use the built in easy roof function for my roof as it really doesn't like to use gable ends at all.  I do have a pretty complex roof though as I am putting an addition on to an existing structure. After initially letting it generate a roof I had to convert to surfaces to get the roof right. The roof is where I have put in all the effort and it is litterally days worth of work to get it right.  I keep thinking to myself the whole time that the auto roof generator part of tfp 15 really should be much more robust and have more options to make it easier.  Seems like the auto roof generate is pretty basic and doesn't generate real world roofs.  Dormers are easy enough to make, but only being able to able to apply them to surfaces is very frustrating. Having to auto generate a roof that is under the existing surface roof, then play with it to get it to match the surface roof, just so you can place a dormer and delete the auto generated roof after that, seems awefully silly and a lot of extra steps.  Just create the dormer and let me stick it to whatever roof I want.       

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* June 15, 2010, 07:12:48 AM
#3
Hi Joe,

A few things I don't understand from your comments. It seems like you have had a lot of messing around to get it to work, which does not make sense to me. To try to work out why so had so many problems I have a few questions/comments:

Unfortunately I can't use the built in easy roof function for my roof as it really doesn't like to use gable ends at all.
I have never had any issue with gables - what probelms did you have?

After initially letting it generate a roof I had to convert to surfaces to get the roof right.
Same question really - why did you have to convert to surfaces?  I have used Surfaces to create other objects but have never had to use them for the roof.

Dormers are easy enough to make, but only being able to able to apply them to surfaces is very frustrating.
Dormers are normally applied to a Roof not to a Surface.  Dormers have always existed in the program but Surfaces were only introduced in V14 so I can't understand why you could only apply them to a Surface.

Having to auto generate a roof that is under the existing surface roof, then play with it to get it to match the surface roof, just so you can place a dormer and delete the auto generated roof after that, seems awefully silly and a lot of extra steps.
Sorry but I can't think of any reason why you would have to do this.

Just create the dormer and let me stick it to whatever roof I want.
That is all I have ever done and is all you should need to do.

I am just wondering if you may have done something unusual in the first place, that has led to all these extra steps to get to where you wanted to be. TFP is capable of creating some very complex roof structures with multiple gables, dormers and even wave shapes, so I can't understand all the difficulties you seem to have had.  I have added a couple of images, copied from the website (not mine), that show some complex gables and dormers. These were done before the Surfaces tool was provided.

Maybe you could post the actual BLD file so we can maybe identify the problem?

Allan
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 08:06:27 AM by Allan Chesney »

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Allan Chesney,
Kalamunda, Perth, Western Australia
www.alchesdesigns.iinet.net.au

TurboFloorPlan Home and Landscape Pro V16.0.C1.901
Envisioneer Construction Suite V9.1.2.1234
TurboCAD V17 Professional


* June 15, 2010, 11:39:28 AM
#4
I admit I am probably doing something wrong.  This is the first time I am working with a program like this.  I am including the bld file I currently have been working on with the surfaces roof that I created so you can see what I am working on here.  I am also including a link to some pictures of the roof on the house.  It would be nice to know where I went wrong  with the built in roof function so that it would be easier to use this program in the future.

http://picasaweb.google.com/joejgarcia/JoeSHouse?feat=directlink

Joe

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June 15, 2010, 01:49:54 PM
#5
Hi Joe! In my first view of your drawings it look rather good and you have done a great job. Then I compare it with the photos of the your house I have some questions:

First of all what version of TFP do you use 14 or 15? Because I don't know if you can open a drawing from 15 in 14. If you have version 14 I can't send you a bld-file saved on version 15, but I can always made screenshots.

Second, Is the foundation of the garage lower then rest of the foundations or it level? It looks like that part of your house is on a lower level compare with rest of your house.

My suggestion is that you add one location for the garage-section, and to change floor location so you use a lower height of walls but full height of Ceiling.

With help of Allan, me and some other great users in this forum will we guide you forward, but not take away the fun of drawing from you, because this is a very fun program to mess around with.  :)

/Robert



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Cadsoft ProArchitect 2
TurboFLOORPLAN3D Home & Landscape Pro
Version 16.0.C1.901.
Computer:
KajRobVin 2011 Asus P6X58D-E/Gigabyte GV-N560OC-1GI Dual Screen Windows 8 Pro
Living: Älmhult Sweden


* June 15, 2010, 02:10:22 PM
#6
Hi Joe! In my first view of your drawings it look rather good and you have done a great job. Then I compare it with the photos of the your house I have some questions:

Thanks for the compliment on the job I have done so far.  This is the first time I have ever used a program like this before.  I intend to learn how to use turbo cad after this as it will be nice to be able to draw out the stuff I make in my machine shop rather than use the ol' calculated eye ball like I do now.

First of all what version of TFP do you use 14 or 15? Because I don't know if you can open a drawing from 15 in 14. If you have version 14 I can't send you a bld-file saved on version 15, but I can always made screenshots.

TFP Home and Garden Pro v15

Second, Is the foundation of the garage lower then rest of the foundations or it level? It looks like that part of your house is on a lower level compare with rest of your house.

Looking at the front of the house, the basement level that is a poured concrete wall and the structure above that is original 1927 house.  Everything to the right of that is the new addition.  The garage/machine shop is lower than the original house's basement.


My suggestion is that you add one location for the garage-section, and to change floor location so you use a lower height of walls but full height of Ceiling.

Say what?    :)  Going to have to explain what you mean by location.  Preferably give me an example what you are talking about.  Actually now that I think about it you are going to have to explain that whole quote.  :)

 
With help of Allan, me and some other great users in this forum will we guide you forward, but not take away the fun of drawing from you, because this is a very fun program to mess around with.  :)

/Robert




Cool, I need the guidance.

Joe
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 02:12:02 PM by joeyg1973 »

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* June 16, 2010, 04:47:14 AM
#7
Hi Joe,

I agree with Robert, you have done a great job so far as it really quite a complex project!

First I thought I would just answer your question on Locations.  Basically you have really got the idea of them, as you have a Foundation, Ground and Second Floor - these are Locations but as Robert suggested you need one for the garage and in fact you need a separate location for every floor level and wall height.

The Location basically control your third dimension, they will control all the vertical distances, so need to be set correctly to start with or you will have problems later on.  Usually rooms in a building that have different height walls or a floor that is a different height above (or below) the ground, should be on a different Location, with its own specific vertical measurements.

Locations work like this (using typical dimensions to illustrate the Wall Heights and Floor Levels [top surface of the floor]).  

1.)  Terrain is Zero (and the various levels are calculated from there)

2.)  The Floor Level for your foundation Floor would be minus 8' as it is 8 ' below the terrain (presumably).

3.)  The Foundation walls are 8'.

4.)  The Ground floor is 1' thick (by default) and sits on top of the foundation walls but has now gone above the terrain by 1' so the Floor Level of the Ground Floor Location is 1'

5.)  The Ground floor has 8' walls

6.)  On top of the walls is the 1' thick floor for the Second Floor, so the Floor Level for the Second Floor Location is 9' above the terrain.

7.)  The Second Floor walls could be a very different matter if the ceiling slopes and is lower than 8' at the edges. So... how high is the lowest VERTICAL part? If the ceiling slopes right to the floor, then the VERTICAL wall height should be set to 1 inch for example or less (turn off the baseboard in this case) and the ceiling height should be the same.  If the VERTICAL part is 2' then that is the Wall Height for the Second Floor Location should be set to 2'. The Head Height (door height - 6'8") should remain the same as the head height for the other floors. Make sure that the walls are set to 'Extend to Roof' so, although they are only 1" high (or 2' high) when you draw them, they will extend to the roof, so you can still insert doors and windows.

8.) If you have another level in the home, eg, the garage is 2' lower than the foundation floor, then create a new Location as Robert suggested, called Garage for example and so the floor level for the garage would be -10', with 2' walls and 6'8" Head height. If it has a separate ceiling then it should be set to 10' or whatever height it is above the garage floor.

As far as your existing Locations are concerned there is not a lot wrong. If the foundation is below ground level, then the easiest fix is to move the Terrrain up by 8' (or whatever the distance is- Settings/  Programme Settings / Terrain) and leave the existing Foundation and Ground Floor Levels as they are (ground at 9'). If you are really adventurous you could slope the terrain so that it matches the real thing.

The Second Floor Floor Level however may not be right.  If the Ground Floor walls are 8' then the Floor Level for the Second floor should be 18' - if this floor is also 1' thick (8' Foundation walls + 1' floor thickness + 8' Ground Floor walls + 1' floor = 18' above zero). If the Second Floor does not sit on top of the ground floor but is lower, then it may be in the right place at 15'1 1/2". If you leave the Foundation at zero, then make the new garage location -2' (or whatever the correct measurement is).

I hope that clarifies the Locations for you (or does it confuse it? ;) )

When it comes to the roof it sits on top of the walls of the location where it is inserted.  So the roof should be inserted on each location that has the highest walls above the terrain. Obviously you do not insert a roof on the Foundation location as it does not go to the roof. The ground floor MAY go to the roof IF the second floor does not cover the whole of the building. In this case the roof would be on two locations, the Ground Floor and the Second floor - by default the second floor would cause the ground floor roof to dissappear where it is overlapped by the second floor roof.  Does that make sense?

If you don't get it all please ask again.

By the way, you will find TurboCAD is MUCH more complex that TFP. I gave up with it - too big a learning curve for me at my age I'm afraid - haven't got the time, or the patience anymore!

Allan
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 06:22:31 AM by Allan Chesney »

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Allan Chesney,
Kalamunda, Perth, Western Australia
www.alchesdesigns.iinet.net.au

TurboFloorPlan Home and Landscape Pro V16.0.C1.901
Envisioneer Construction Suite V9.1.2.1234
TurboCAD V17 Professional


* June 16, 2010, 07:43:04 AM
#8
That makes sense.  I tried what you suggested about the second floor previously for the part above the garage which has a floor level of 15' 1 1/2" in order to accommodate an automotive lift in the garage below which has a ceiling height of 14'2" (the default floor width is 11 1/2" which makes sense when you take into account 1/2" drywall ceiling) would only form around the outside of the exterior walls and not extend up up no matter what I set the wall or ceiling height to which is why I am using the current solution I have.  I set the second floor to 0" for both wall and ceiling height and just extended the ground floor walls up and that worked.  I have tried every possible way to get this thing to work that I could think of and so far this is all that has worked.  I will try again using location and see if that makes a difference.  If anybody can get it to work the way Allen describes with my bld file be my guest.

I set the house above the terrain because I figured I would adjust that later as you described and then play with the terrain to make the hill that the house is built into in the back.

I need to make the awning over the garage and I have no clue how I am going to do that, any ideas?

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* June 16, 2010, 08:42:03 AM
#9
Hi Joe,

Last thing first - the awning can be just a surface or you can use a roof (on it's own Location so it does not get caught up in the other roof). Set the slope on the front edge and set the other three edges to gable. The roof location should have the walls height set to the height of the roof so it sits at the right height.

The best way with the main roof is probably to do it by drawing the roof 'by Picking Points. This way you can force the ridge to stay in place and use the right click, "Move Edge - Maintain Support Height (if you are 'cutting into the roof') and Adjust Support Height if you are extending the roof. The edge this creates you make into a gable and set the overhang to a small figure so that the facia still shows.

Hopefully the image will show you what I mean.

You can then add the dormers.

Allan

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Allan Chesney,
Kalamunda, Perth, Western Australia
www.alchesdesigns.iinet.net.au

TurboFloorPlan Home and Landscape Pro V16.0.C1.901
Envisioneer Construction Suite V9.1.2.1234
TurboCAD V17 Professional


* June 16, 2010, 09:56:52 AM
#10
OK this worked for the most part.  What still doesn't work is getting the back of the old house to be a gable.  Take a look at the picture in the link below to see what I mean.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/_70CIV9qUhba9YZuvFsvAw?feat=directlink

I will try the awning in a few seconds.  Is there an easy way to cut an opening in the ceiling for a skylight?  It works fine in the roof, but when you put up a ceiling, they get blocked out by the it and I have to go back and use the ol' calculated eyeball and cut the opening in the ceiling by hand after I have extended the skylights frame depth to 9".

Joe

Hi Joe,

Last thing first - the awning can be just a surface or you can use a roof (on it's own Location so it does not get caught up in the other roof). Set the slope on the front edge and set the other three edges to gable. The roof location should have the walls height set to the height of the roof so it sits at the right height.

The best way with the main roof is probably to do it by drawing the roof 'by Picking Points. This way you can force the ridge to stay in place and use the right click, "Move Edge - Maintain Support Height (if you are 'cutting into the roof') and Adjust Support Height if you are extending the roof. The edge this creates you make into a gable and set the overhang to a small figure so that the facia still shows.

Hopefully the image will show you what I mean.

You can then add the dormers.

Allan
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 10:08:05 AM by joeyg1973 »

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* June 17, 2010, 02:57:09 AM
#11
Hi Joe,

What still doesn't work is getting the back of the old house to be a gable.

To get the gable to work you must make a section of the edge to turn into a gable. Practice this on a test roof. Insert the roof and leave it highlighted so you can see the arrows. Right click and select Break and click on one edge of the roof about a third along the edge. Now do the same again two thirds along the same edge. On that edge you should now have 3 arrows, one in the middle and one each side.  They should all still be Hip. Select the middle arrow so that only this one is green. Now right click and change it to Gable. A gable should appear in that edge of the roof.

In your case the gable goes right to one edge and is butted up against another roof that sticks out further so this make it a little more tricky. Essentially you do the same thing as before but your two breaks need to be very close to the two edges of that section, but do not put them at the edges at first. Do it like this:

1.)  Highlight the roof so you can see the arrows.

2.)  Selexct the edge where you want the Gable so that only this arrow is green

3.)  Right click and select Properties and set the roof overhang to 1" for example (Normally this would not be necessay, but because one edge of your gable butts up against a roof that extends further, if the overhang is there it will extend into the other roof, cause it to join and probably create a monstrosity of a roof).

4.)  Now insert the two breaks at one third and two thirds along that section.

5.)  Select the centre arrow so that only it is green, right click and select Gable. (you should now have a gable in the centre of that section)

6.)  SAVE !!!

7.)  Zoom in on each of the Breaks and drag the Break as close to the corner and other roof as you can get without it snapping into the other edge.  With careful movement of these breaks (zoom in to get it as big as you can) you can drag the gable out wide to fill the space.

8.)  Because we made the overhang tiny at the start (so that the new Break sections had a tiny overhang) you will now want to select the Gable (make sure it is ONLY the gable that is green) and set the overhang back to what it should be.  

9.)  If you end up with a tiny corner cut out of the outside corner of the roof, then also reset the Overhang on the break arrow that is pointing UP the slope of the GABLE only.

The image is about how it should end up.

Again if you can't follow that just ask.

I am not aware of any way to cause the skylights to cut the ceiling.  This should be relatively easy however becasue you should be able to drag the edges of the hole you cut so that they fit around the skylight and in same way as you drag the edges of the roof.

By the way you can add your own photos here on the forum if you want  - it is not restricted to TFP images.

Allan
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 02:59:52 AM by Allan Chesney »

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Allan Chesney,
Kalamunda, Perth, Western Australia
www.alchesdesigns.iinet.net.au

TurboFloorPlan Home and Landscape Pro V16.0.C1.901
Envisioneer Construction Suite V9.1.2.1234
TurboCAD V17 Professional


* June 17, 2010, 04:33:30 AM
#12
I will give this a try later today. As far as the skylights are concerned 2 things make what you suggest an issue. 1) Skylights have no attachment points on the corners to cut around. It only has one attachment point in the center and a turn point on one end. 2) The cut out in the ceiling is a different size and location from the roof cutout. 

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June 18, 2010, 06:16:46 AM
#13
Hi Joe  and Allan! Sorry that I not have com back with a answer before, I have had difficult to reach the forum from my computer, I have no connection with IMSIdesign or the forum from my own IPS, this answer have I write on a computer in the town library.

I will say thanks top you Allan , that you answer in my place abut what I mean with location.

I hope I soon will reach the forum again from my home computer, I will try again to day.

/ Robert

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TurboFLOORPLAN3D Home & Landscape Pro
Version 16.0.C1.901.
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Living: Älmhult Sweden


* June 18, 2010, 08:03:44 AM
#14
Hi Robert,

You must be lost without a computer connection at home.  Certainly a pain to have to go to the library. Hope you get it sorted out soon.


Hi Joe,

Re cutting out the ceiling for the skylights: I will be honest I have never used a skylight before - we get too much sun here so they are very rarely seen and even the ones that are are so heavily covered with replective film that they may as well not be there!!.

However I inserted one to see what the issues were, and I can see that it is not quite straight forward when you have a cathedral ceiling because of the alignment of the two. Nevertheless I was able to do it quite easily as follows:

1.)  Widen the frame of the skylight so that it protrudes through the ceiling

2.)  Use the Veiw Filter and Lock the roof so that you do not acidentally select it.

3.)  Select the ceiling, right click and select Cut Opening

4.)  Draw the opening you want close to the skylight.

5.)  From inside, drag the edges of the opening outline and watch the edges of the opening itself move and stop when they match the frame of the skylight.

Obviously it is only trial and error draging the edges to match them up but if you zoom in really close it is easy to do.

Having said all that there may be other ways of doing it easier - as I said I have never used one before. If there is another way I am sure someone will let us know.

Allan


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Allan Chesney,
Kalamunda, Perth, Western Australia
www.alchesdesigns.iinet.net.au

TurboFloorPlan Home and Landscape Pro V16.0.C1.901
Envisioneer Construction Suite V9.1.2.1234
TurboCAD V17 Professional