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Imported objects effect on file size
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June 17, 2012, 05:45:55 PM
I'm currently experiencing the frustration with the issues concerning file size, PC specifications  when using TFP&LPRO V16 and importing 3Ds object TC3DProV19 and 3Ds Trees- Bushes XFROG larger 3D files. I'm using a win7x32 with 2GB RAM and 512GB video Card The File size project  was over 72,000 KB and TFP&LPro V16 will not render real view. I replaced 3ds trees, bushes I had imported from XFROG software replacing them with TFP&L and reduced the file to a little over 32,000 KB and still can't do real render. I tried  adjusting the settings in the advance setting for the last two weeks and still having the same problem. :o
 I 'm working on reducing the file size more and keep trying until  the New PC  HP with win7x64  with 4GB Ram and 1G video Card I'm purchasing gets delivered. :'(
I will keep you inform at the result!
Rober

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Robert De Jesus Perez
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* June 17, 2012, 07:38:20 PM
#1
Hi Robert,

This illustrates the problem with many imported objects and trees are one of the worst. The problem is there are so many surfaces and it is trying to create a shadow for each leaf. With Advanced render it would be trying to do that, as well as bouce light from one leaf to another and everything else, so rendering times would be horrific. There is a similar problem, though not as bad, with many curved surfaces.

I only use 3DS trees on rare occasions, to achieve a specific shadow. For trees I usually take my own photos, in high resolution - they have no impact on file size and render in seconds. There is no 3DS tree that beats them for realism.

When you said it will "not render" - what happened - did it crash, give a message or what? or was it taking so inordinately long that you gave up?  In the past if I have had a very big project (like one which was a 62 room Convention Centre) I would start the render and go to bed - I have  better PC now but it is only about the same as yours.

Allan

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Allan Chesney,
Kalamunda, Perth, Western Australia
www.alchesdesigns.iinet.net.au

TurboFloorPlan Home and Landscape Pro V16.0.C1.901
Envisioneer Construction Suite V9.1.2.1234
TurboCAD V17 Professional


* June 17, 2012, 07:42:28 PM
#2
Hi Robert,

I have bad news.... probably you won't get spectacular results. The rendering in Turbocad and TFP are different systems. And to be honest, I didn't like Tcad V19
I have a Win7 computer with 8GB Ram and VC with 2G and I was able to render a file with 260 mb (no trees) , but it was slow....
 
As Alan stated, plants and trees are not intended to be 3D objects in TFP, because the large number of polygons.
My suggestion for trees and plants --> use pictures as photoboards

Pat
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 09:41:43 AM by Draftcad »

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* June 18, 2012, 08:26:39 AM
#3
More info regarding the imported objects / trees, files' sizes, etc

I did the following exercise
I downloaded a 3D tree (Alpine fir --> see jpg image attached) using different formats (not all of them can be imported in Turbofloorplan) --> so I converted it to dxf and 3DS using Turbocad These are the sizes
*.3ds file --> 2348 kb
*.dxf file --> 18097 kb

Then, I used an old program to check the numer of polygons --> check the image attached and you will understand the issue --> 79416 polygons!!!  :o
So, by checking your computer capabilties, you can do the math regarding the rendering times, crashes, etc

Pat
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 09:40:59 AM by Draftcad »

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June 18, 2012, 12:52:55 PM
#4
Why should I have a problem  creating in TurboFloorPlan & Landscaping 3D Pro V16 using the trees provided in it's catalog ?
 :o ???
Robert

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June 18, 2012, 01:14:10 PM
#5
You lost me here????
Are you telling me that imported objects created in TurboCad v19 as 3ds files into TurboFloorplan & Landscaping pro v16 will be problematic?  ???
I can understand PC issues, and rendering a large file specially having importing better quality trees would make a longer and slower rendering process, but after replacing the trees with the trees in the provided catalog??  ???  >:(  :o
This is costing me Time and money.... :(
Not a very optimistic out look for either program, If Im limited to small house,  and limited amount of fake looking trees etc.
I was hoping pro meant I can create not play  :o

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June 18, 2012, 01:29:15 PM
#6
When I said it will not render I meant that even at the lowest quality Option.  It will calculate the polygons: 3401001, and time: 375s , at 1-step Radiosity,then I will get an error message:
File parse error
file-obj_6045_0_0.ent
then
never finish raytrace (also disabling Raytrace)
And I would wait Hrs and no rendering process  ???

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June 18, 2012, 02:34:49 PM
#7
Here are samples of the project I created.
1= This is the design I try to render with the largest file size to date. I needed to add the street lamp post & other light fixtures to be completed but is on hold till I resolve the problems. (Take a look at the camera Properties and you get a better Idea of the size of the Shopping center terrain, boundaries and trees to compare the modifications with the other remakes. Also you will notice I replaced the trees and reduced objects as well as terrain, boundaries, plus cut structure to half the actual building)

2= This version has the replace trees.reduced terrain and Boundaries.

3= This version is the top layout view of the final reductions  in version 4.

4= This is the smallest version with replaced tree,  half the structure, less cars, less parking area, reduced terrain and boundaries.

I have stopped trying rendering out of frustration, and lack of objects to reduce or remove hoping that the new PC investment with better ram, video card etc would solve it. I have spoken with David, Doug, Chris and no solution yet to my problem.  :-[  :'(

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June 18, 2012, 02:47:04 PM
#8
P.S. The Awnings + Awning Frames- Roof metal tiles (this is the larges file do to the detail of being each tile was duplicated  to the size of roof,then saved as a 3Ds  single object file) and the store signs, I created with TurboCad 3D Pro V19 the trees where from 3Ds files from XFrog software

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* June 18, 2012, 06:49:36 PM
#9
Hi Robert,

I will try to pick out the key points of your last few posts.
Why should I have a problem  creating in TurboFloorPlan & Landscaping 3D Pro V16 using the trees provided in it's catalog ?
You shouldn't.  They are not 3D trees so should not be a problem. I have used hundreds in one model with not problems at all.

Are you telling me that imported objects created in TurboCad v19 as 3ds files into TurboFloorplan & Landscaping pro v16 will be problematic?  ???
Not necessarily. Whether the object was created in TurboCAD or any other program makes no difference, it is still a 3DS file. There is no direct relationship between TurboCAD and TurboFloorPlan except they are both sold by IMSI Design. TC is an IMSI production, TFP is produced by Cadsoft for IMSI. You can import objects from one to the other, but only in the same way you can do that with other programs. What I am saying is that being a 3DS object created by TC does not make it any more acceptable to TFP than one created by AutoCAD, ShetchUp or any other CAD software. All potentailly produce large files and when imported to TFP can blow out memory tremendously where TFP own generations are tiny.

Not a very optimistic out look for either program, If Im limited to small house,  and limited amount of fake looking trees etc.
I was hoping pro meant I can create not play  :o
Your are certainly not limited to a small house and fake trees. As I mentiomned before I have produced some large projects, the 62 room convention centre I mentioned earlier was by no means small and included over 2000 specially designed 3DS chairs. Look in the Gallery and you will see some large projects (eg a 9 storey office block http://forums.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,758.0.html and 12 storey apartment building http://forums.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,1604.0.html and very realistic trees as in the example below. My Convention Centre with the roof off indicates the size potential, as does Capture5. This is not mine and I do not know who actually did it now, except for the words on it, but this was done in Envisioneer. As mentioned before TFP is the 3D part of Envisioneer, so TFP could have produced exactly the same model and rendered it. The two will open, edit and render each others 3D files. Envisioneer differs only in its 2D capabilities. I simply posted it to indicate that size should not be a problem.

When I said it will not render I meant that even at the lowest quality Option.  It will calculate the polygons: 3401001, and time: 375s , at 1-step Radiosity,then I will get an error message:
File parse error
file-obj_6045_0_0.ent
The number of polygons is a real worry as is the Parse Error. This indicates a corrupt element (entity) and even if the model was very small it would likely not render. The most common cause is a corrupt wall (bad wall join) or a 'corrupt' import. You will have to find the problem entity by a process of elimination. Turn off walls first and try to render again. If it works the problem is in the walls (check all the joins), If it still doesn't work, turn the walls back on and turn something else off (especially imported objects) and try again until you find the object and delete it.

P.S. The Awnings + Awning Frames- Roof metal tiles (this is the larges file do to the detail of being each tile was duplicated  to the size of roof,then saved as a 3Ds  single object file) and the store signs, I created with TurboCad 3D Pro V19 the trees where from 3Ds files from XFrog software
This potentiall is the biggest problem. If I am understanding this brief description correctly, it sound as though the whole roof is made of 3D 'metal tiles' and that the signs are also 3 dimentional. Normally this would be done by taking a photo of the 'tile', saving as a  texture and apply to the roof and use photoboards as the signs - all of which use NO memory, as they are simply referenced from the Textures folder on your computer. Potentally this would cut the file size down dramatically and, once the curruption mentioned earlier is removed, it should render in farily short time. In fact, I would save the project with a different name, delete the '3DS roof' and try a render - maybe there is some part of that which is causing the problem. If so then you would obviously have to creat a TFP roof using a tile photo as a texture. You may get away with the signs, but if not then use photoboards. They can look very real and look 3D even if they aren't.

Allan

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Allan Chesney,
Kalamunda, Perth, Western Australia
www.alchesdesigns.iinet.net.au

TurboFloorPlan Home and Landscape Pro V16.0.C1.901
Envisioneer Construction Suite V9.1.2.1234
TurboCAD V17 Professional


June 18, 2012, 09:00:40 PM
#10
Thank you Allan.
1-I have 6 variations of this project and each has a different name.
2- After my last post I took the last project gave it a new name and deleted the roof tile and was doing exactly your suggestion to reduce file size and see if that might be the problem.
 Regarding the roof, if you look at the layout image I posted, the 1st building with an octagon shape and triangle area is all flat roof. In the 2nd rectangular building with flat roof.
There is two octagon towers 2 stories high with gable roof between the 2 separate buildings. I used the roof tool to create the roof but instead of tile appearance I chose paint surface  and imported the tile 3ds roof I created because the metal roof tile surface didn't come in the color I wanted 
In the outer front of the two buildings there is a 3ds file porch roof  I imported in two parts, 1 angle flat roof & 2 the angle metal roof tile ( none were converted to roof or roof surface) with columns and a 2 story towers with gable roof with the same paint application and imported metal roof tile ( roof created with roof tool and paint surface and imported 3ds roof tile as a decorative object not roof surface) 
After deleting all the roof tile and left the roof with the paint application, I did my first real render and I get the same error.  waited  over 3 hours and  gave up  so I closed  the render.
Thanks for your suggestion, I  will have to find the problem entity by a process of elimination. Turn off walls first and try to render again. If it works the problem is in the walls (check all the joins), If it still doesn't work, turn the walls back on and turn something else off (especially imported objects) and try again until I find the object and delete it.
Fingers cross
Thanks
Robert
 


 

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Robert De Jesus Perez
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* June 18, 2012, 09:16:04 PM
#11
Hi Robert,

After deleting all the roof tile and left the roof with the paint application, I did my first real render and I get the same error.  waited  over 3 hours and  gave up  so I closed  the render.

Did you actually get the same error message or was it just the time factor that caused you to give up? If you get the error message it does not matter how long you wait it will not work. Once the error message comes then just abort it and turn something else off until you find it.  Set the rendering size small and use a low quality so that your test renders will be quicker. I never do tests larger than 640x480 - sometimes only half that. It is enough to see if it works and that you have the sun at the right angle and brightness.

Does it render on Basic? Often this is all you need for exterior views as there is not much reflected light involved and usually it is much quicker. Advanced is best for interior views with artificial lighting.

Allan

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Allan Chesney,
Kalamunda, Perth, Western Australia
www.alchesdesigns.iinet.net.au

TurboFloorPlan Home and Landscape Pro V16.0.C1.901
Envisioneer Construction Suite V9.1.2.1234
TurboCAD V17 Professional


* June 18, 2012, 09:37:46 PM
#12
Hi again Robert,

I was just looking at your latest images again and noticed what I assume is a river on the left. If this is the case then I presume the texture is set to be reflective.  Reflections can also slow down rendering, so if you are using lots of reflective textures unnecessarily (eg internal walls or the river if it isn't in view at the time) then making them Dull will speed up the Raytrace section of the render. This has nothing to do with the error message you are getting though.

Allan

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Allan Chesney,
Kalamunda, Perth, Western Australia
www.alchesdesigns.iinet.net.au

TurboFloorPlan Home and Landscape Pro V16.0.C1.901
Envisioneer Construction Suite V9.1.2.1234
TurboCAD V17 Professional


June 18, 2012, 11:57:22 PM
#13
Good Eye  ;)
Yes there's a canal.I just reduce the size of the canal and waiting for rendering test, I will check the reflection setting. The error is the same, and I started  using # 2 setting fast at display modify view, -day light enable-Fog & smoke disable- Brightness .75
Thank you, I appreciate your help
Robert :)

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June 19, 2012, 12:16:06 AM
#14
I have been using advance settings, David said he preferred rendering using advance, next time I will use basic. The first rendering I try two weeks ago was using Basic and the program froze & closed, I believe it had to do with VC issues and that I had 0.0 brightness, Day light & Fog and smoke enable and quality settings, after that all my test have been using advance and I adjusted the settings.
The acceleration is disable because one time after I had install a new Geforce 6200 512mb VC the program would close. David has the details. 
I'm currently uninstalled the new VC and using the factory PC Original VC!
Robert

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