I am trying to model a summer cottage that has exterior clapboards over plain 2x4 framing. There IS no interior wall surface -- the studs are OPEN to the interior. Built-in Furnishings, such as bookshelves, pictures, hooks, etc., are placed between the studs, so being able to see and model the empty space between the (non-existent) interior wall and the (existent) exterior wall.
How can I do this? Turbofloorplan keeps putting drywall on the inside, which covers up the space between the studs. If I pretend the interior wall is glass, I don't see the inside of the clapboard. (Besides which, I don't know how to view the 2x4 studs anyway.)
I am using TFP 15.
Cyndi
Hi Cyndi
1. To view the framing you have to turn it on, that will you do under View Filter, unmarked Lock Framing and click on the symbol under Selection to it complete fill. Now you can use the glass-wall, but you will see trough the wall to next room or nature. see image.
Then it com to which wall are left or right, it is depending how you have draw the wall. If you think that you are walking and drag the wall behind you the left hand will always be left wall and the right hand will always be right wall, and your nose point out the direction.
Quote from: Robert W - "robban" on August 22, 2010, 03:02:01 PM
Hi Cyndi
1. To view the framing you have to turn it on, that will you do under View Filter, unmarked Lock Framing and click on the symbol under Selection to it complete fill. Now you can use the glass-wall, but you will see trough the wall to next room or nature. see image. frame wall.jpg
Then it com to which wall are left or right, it is depending how you have draw the wall. If you think that you are walking and drag the wall behind you the left hand will always be left wall and the right hand will always be right wall, and your nose point out the direction.
2. If you will see the surface of the external wall you have to made a backdrop with help of a copy of the wall.
3. To make this backdrop select the wall you are us in the drawing, right click and select ad element. Now you will have a copy of your wall, set type to general width to 1", click on autoname and ad text backdrop see image backdrop.jpg,
4. Now have to draw the backdrop parallel to the original wall you need a complete room to get the surface right, the 3 other wallas in a complete room can you do with invisible walls whit help of room division. To get the doors and windows use openings. look at frame wall2.jpg
5 Before you can render you have to delete the backdrop. The backdrop will be black. You can only use screen dump then you use the backdrop. I'm sure the will be a way around that to maybe blue-screen, 2 render and put them together with PS or PSP /Robert
Hi
Her have I rendering the inside of the house with a blue screen and normal rendering of the backdrop and merge the together with help Corel PSP photo X2.5.
To do this you need have the backdrop on a own location, so yo can use the view filter for hide the backdrop, the you render the backdrop hide rest of the house don't forget to turn of framing
Hi Cyndi,
Robert's solutions should work for you but I have another solution to consider also - similar to Robert's but done differently.
As I understand it, you just want to be able to show the framing on the inside of the building but still keep the exterior wall texture. If this is right then probably all you need is to duplicate your existing walls onto another location, set them very thin, with the texture you want on the inside and outside and change the original walls so they show only the frames.
To try it out, make a copy of your model then do the following:
1. Open Building Locations and Add a new Location called, for example, "Second Walls", with the settings exactly the same as the Ground Floor.
2. Go to the Plan view of the Ground Floor, Shift/Select all the walls that you want to only appear as frames.
3. While all are selected, right click and select Duplicate to Locations and select your new "Second Walls" Location.
4. Change the Plan view to your new "Second Walls" Location. Click a wall, right click and Select all Similar (all walls should be selected)
5. While still selected, right click Properties and set the wall Core very thin (eg 1"(25mm) or less)
6. While still in Properties, select the Trim tab and delete all Trim for both interior sides and the Exterior side, then on the Appearance tab shift/select all wall surfaces and choose the texture you want.
7. Return to the Ground Floor, Select the same walls that you duplicated originally and go to Properties, click the Framing button (bottom) and make sure you have the frame timber you want selected.
8. Go to the View Filter, check the Lock Framing box (bottom), Uncheck the All locations box (top) and select the Ground Floor location.
9. Turn Wall Surfaces OFF and Framing ON on the Ground Floor only.
This will hide the surfaces of the ground floor walls and show just the frames, while the thin "Second Walls" location will be visible with your chosen texture on the inside and out. The windows and doors should automatically cut through the thin duplicated walls.
If you want you can probably drag the thin wall on the Second Walls location towards the outside edge of the original walls (now shown only as frames) but if you go too far this wall will 'block' the windows and doors. The thin walls must stay within the thickness of the 'frame only' walls. If you want the frames inside to appear 'deeper', you can increase the Core of the origianl walls and set the framing to thicker timber accordingly.
NOTE that if you want to make any changes to the 'frame only' walls you cannot select the wall while it is 'frame only' - you must turn its Surfaces on before you can select it, make the change, then turn the Surfaces (of GROUND FLOOR ONLY) off again.
If you want to do an outside view, just turn the framing off on the ground floor - no need to make the surfaces visible as the thin wall is still there.
This method will mean that you can still move around within your model and see how it looks from all angles and generate images accordingly. (See example below).
If any of that is not clear, but it suits what you want to do, then just ask again.
Allan
Hi Cyndi and Allan! I have try your method it was much easier than my version, but I notes on thing in the view filter, it is not necessary to delete the trims, this can you do by turn it off in view filter. I use backdrop as name for the location and use the backdrop wall, but it must be a general wall other vice you got extra framing.
Robert
Hi Robert and Cyndi,
Yes you can turn the Trim off in the View Filter. This will turn all the trim off of course, which I imagine would be fine in this situation. There may be trim on windows though (possibly) so in this case you would just delete whatever trim you do not need.
As long as the Ground Floor walls have the framing, then they can still be duplicated to for the thin wall on the second location but turn the framing off in the View Filter for FOR THAT LOCATION ONLY. To do that use the check box at top right - then choose just the 'Second Walls' or 'Backdrop' location (whatever you called it) from the list below - and turn the framing off. The main list (on left turns the framing on or off for ALL locations.
Make sure that your original walls (with the windows and doors) are the ones you use to show the framing and the duplicated, thin walls are the ones to show the surfaces! If you do it the other way around the framing will go through the windows and doors and if you move one of the wall they will cut through the framing but the whole frame in the vicinity of the door or window will go including the cross members.
If you want additional cross members (to put objects on), go to Interior Accessories / Decorative / and use the Custom Member. Set it to the size you want and the same texture as your framing on all surfaces and right click Elevate it to the height you want. You can then Right Click Duplicate and drag another one to a different place on the wall and so on.
Hope that helps and that you can follow it all.
Allan
:) The tips are great! I will let you know how they worked out next time I come back to civilization (place with electric power and Internet) from said remote cottage! I think the idea of modeling the frame as an empty space with a 3/4 inch "shell" of siding will look just right. Thank you both! Cyndi
PS. Are you sure you didn't sneak in and model the place while I was out fetching wood or something?
Hi Cyndi,
Don't worry - your secret location is safe!!
There are many similar ones in remote places here in Australia, so I had a fair idea what you were describing!
Enjoy your break away from the maddening crowd!
Allan
Hi Allan and Rob,
Definite progress, some problems remaining, model (total size on the order of a couple of jpg images) attached:
(1) ADDITION NO LONGER WORKS! (TFP Product Manager, please change physical universe to match:-)
The front wall is 20'1" for the "exterior" size (4" walls with 2x4 studs, I originally modeled them as 3 7/8" walls to match the supposed actual stud size, but that made no difference in the numbers here.). (I used glass for wall surface on the studs, exterior, left interior, and right interior).
From right to left across front of building:
INCHES
0 Begin of Building (outside edge of Stud wall)
[SPACE 18 3/4"]
18 3/4 Start of 46" wide Window (opening trim included)
64 3/4 End of 46"
[SPACE 20 3/4"]
85 1/2 Start of 69" Wide Door (trim included)
154 1/2 End of Door
[ SPACE 24"]
178 1/2 Start of 46" wide Window
224 1/2 End of Window
[HOWL should be 16 1/2", but when I place items on the wall, but only 12 9/16" is left to use!]
241 End of Building (outside edge of stud wall)
When I add up the elements, I get 241 inches. (Opening trim included). When I space the items on the wall, at the end of the wall, I come up 3 15/16" short! I have attached the build model (almost as small as a regular jpeg photo) to demonstrate. Huh?
This (hopefully local) failure in mathematics may also be why my skins don't work correctly. (Otherwise, Allan, they work as advertised, a little weirdness in that some of the mullions vanish on the front windows, but fine tuning should eventually take care of that.) I used a separate location (floor) for the skins, and just deleted all the trim options on the walls (exterior, left and right interiors). The "skin" walls are now 3/4" general walls (not framed walls) which reprints the actually thickness of the clapboard siding (whose interior makes up the inside wall.)
(2) FRAMING (systemic problems):
Both roof and walls have 24" framing, but nothing matches.
(a) The ROOF framing is not symmetrical. (in the building, the studs meet at the top).
(b) The roof framing does not match the walls. (in the building, each roof stud is carefully placed upon a wall
stud for support.
(c) I would like to specify an offset for where the first stud appears with regard to the end of the outside wall, if I could FIND the edge outside wall (see above, ADDITION NO LONGER WORKS).
(3) FRAMING (customizable?):
OK, my grandfather built the place, so he ALMOST always stuck to the regulation 24" spacing, except at the end, where there are a couple of odd spacings, just as with the front overhang of the roof, where it switches from 24" to 16" spacing. Any way to move a stud a little to correspond with reality? I don't see how to select one, let alone customize.
There is an built-in assumption about the ACTUAL size of 2x4's. I was taught (by Grandfather) that they are actually 1 7/8" x 3 7/8". That does not appear to be the case in TFP -- are they 1 15/16"x3 15/16" now? Better sawmills?
(4) Horizontal framing
I still need to build a custom member to be the top of the framing along the front. I'm surprised I only got the vertical studs. (They do go to the roof like that, but each wall is capped by two 2x4s upon which the roof rests. This also keeps the walls from falling apart. (I also have to add some wooden pieces that keep the roof from bulging out, I think they are called trusses?)
Other notes for anyone trying a similar project:
On the roof, it worked better when I fixed the soffit to be glass (transparent), showing the underside and the framing, and turned on the gable front to extend the wall to the roof.
Interesting that Canada and Australia share similar cottage construction -- both Commonwealth countries?
Last word: Even through I grew up with English units, I will be happy to get back to my metric home, where (I hope) addition works.
Hi Cyndi,
Your model and questions create a few questions in my mind:
What is the actual purpose of the project? Is it your intention to produce structrally accurate plans of the building or do you just want to see how it looks in 3D?
I ask this question because if you want structurally precise framing control, then you have the wrong product - you need the parent program, Envisioneer (Construction Suite). If you go to the Location settings you will notice that the last column is Framing Options, and when you double click the different options, all you get is 'Default' and nothing is customisable. These options are available only in Envisioneer, which also produces the detailed construction drawings etc but is 20-30 times the price (probably more than the cottage cost when it was first built!).
TFP is only really for visualisation. You can see the default framing and can set the framing members to whatever size you want but you cannot control the spacing or access any individual stud or rafter. You can set the precision down to tenths of a millimeter if you want, for accuracy, but you cannot control the placing of framing members in TFP. (To cahnge precision go to Settings / Programme Settings / Units of Measure - While you are there, why don't you set it to Metric and attach the Metric Catalogue - File/ Catalogues / Open - I grew up with Imperal but metric is much easier I think!! Fractions of an inch are a real pain!).
If you plan to use it only for visualisation, and the wall is not wide enough for the framing to display with the end space you want, then just drag the wall out a bit. In 3D view you would never know that it is not the right measurement.
If you want the wall and roof framing to be precisely accurate, then you can either buy Envisioneer Construction Suite or you can use TFP and build the framing yourself piece by piece relatively quickly using the techniques in this post: http://forums.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,1304.0.html (http://forums.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,1304.0.html). You will not need to use glass walls using this method. In fact using all glass walls can lead to rendering problems later (sometimes they can even render totally black) - much better to turn the wall surfaces off altogether in View Filter, if you want to use the default framing - make your own framing and that wont bother you.
From reading all your issues about size of framing and distances etc, I suspect you will be happier with the end result, if you forget about the default framing and build the framing yourself using members and pillars (or the Box in this post - http://forums.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,315.0.html (http://forums.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,315.0.html) ). If there is not enough detail in the previous subject linked above for you to work out how to do it, ask again and I will provide more detail.
Allan
Hi Cyndi!
I have look at you drawing and fund some odd things in you location settings,you have set head height to proper height , your windows will automatic come at right level, that's all.
Now some tip to fix some of you odd framing, if you use a opening and set the width to correct the distance between to frames and the height and depth to 1mm and you get a beam that can split the distance between to frames and on the same time you get a beam that you can adjust in height, and will you not have a beam hide the opening over or under the wall. If it OK that the beam will bee thick that is one way to go. Se image.
Second tip: First I think you shall follow Allan's advice to only turn of the surface for the framed wall, no need to use glass the only thing you cant select the wall after you have turn of the surface, but it is only to turn it on again
Third tip: make 2 more location. 1 is roof 2nd is backdrop top, set the walls to 1-5mm you need not to change the other settings to both, that shall fix the wall framing problem for the top of the roof.
/Robert
Hi again Cyndi,
I just wanted to re-emphasise the importance of Robert's Second Tip.
Quote from: Robert W - "robban" on August 28, 2010, 08:05:23 AM
Second tip: First I think you shall follow Allan's advice to only turn of the surface for the framed wall, no need to use glass the only thing you cant select the wall after you have turn of the surface, but it is only to turn it on again
I had a suspicion that the glass walls would cause problems, so I rendered the inside of your cabin with the
'glass walls' turned on and they
conflict with your 'skin' wall which of course, is sitting 'inside' the glass walls. As you can see in the first image, it causes holes in the 'skin' wall. The second image is identical, except that I turned off the glass surfaces in the View Filter for the Ground Floor Location - all the holes are fixed. You could leave the surfaces turned on while you are working on it, so you can select those wall, but make sure you turn them off when you render an image.
Allan
Hi Cyndi!
One more way to do the odd framing, in my last post I wrote:
Quote from: Robert W - "robban" on August 28, 2010, 08:05:23 AM
Now some tip to fix some of you odd framing, if you use a opening and set the width to correct the distance between to frames and the height and depth to 1mm and you get a beam that can split the distance between to frames and on the same time you get a beam that you can adjust in height, and will you not have a beam hide the opening over or under the wall. If it OK that the beam will bee thick that is one way to go.
Her is maybe a better way to do it, I have use 2 different mtrl so it will be clear on the photo what I have done. I call it COM-method, Columns, Opening and Member
I have use 1.5 " X 3.5" Rect. Solid Column , 1 1/2" X 3 1/2" Rect. Solid Member and 1'-8" X 0" Rectangular Opening in the drawing, see the image.
The members is converted layout line,draw it on a free space outside the building so you can find the member after you convert it, you have to elevate it to level of half of the wall height at the beginning, then can you drag it inside the building .
I use 3d-view then I set columns and members and 2D then I set the opening.
One more tip in Settings/Drawings Aids: set Model View Editing Nudge Distance to 1" for better control or something else.
Robert
Hi Cyndi and Robert,
Cyndi, I have just re-read your earlier post with the dimension queries etc and I don't think either Robert or myself have commented on a couple of the points you raised:
(1) ADDITION NO LONGER WORKS!Quote from: cmills on August 26, 2010, 06:24:36 PM
When I add up the elements, I get 241 inches. (Opening trim included). When I space the items on the wall, at the end of the wall, I come up 3 15/16" short! I have attached the build model (almost as small as a regular jpeg photo) to demonstrate. Huh?
The problem with your calculations in this post was that you have the door set to 69" but you have not allowed for the 2" frame each side - the door space is actually 73" (72 15/16 to be precise). This accounts for the missing 3 15/16". If you change the door to 65" it should all work out correctly.
(3) FRAMING (customizable?):Quote from: cmills on August 26, 2010, 06:24:36 PM
There is an built-in assumption about the ACTUAL size of 2x4's. I was taught (by Grandfather) that they are actually 1 7/8" x 3 7/8". That does not appear to be the case in TFP -- are they 1 15/16"x3 15/16" now? Better sawmills?
The actual size you want the framing is set in the wall properties. When you choose any particular wall you can double-click to change the size to the precise size you want (from your particular saw mill!!) and that will be the exact size on the plan - you can change the name accordingly if you want. See the second image (I am using the Metric catalogue hence the change from Imperial to Metric in the catalogue). If you set this to 4" x 2" (or 100 x 50mm for me) that is what you will get. By the way - this setting will NOT change the wall thickness - this is controlled by the Core setting. In fact, if you set the framing to 4x2 and the wall Core to 3/4" the framing will stick out both sides of the wall. This could even be used for your inside views, WITHOUT having a separate 'skin' wall - just set the framing to 8x2 (or a bit more - so you get 4" inside) and you could just turn the framing off for the outside views.
In the third image I have turned off all the framing in the walls and just used 4x2 pillars for the studs (polace where you want) and for the top and bottom rail I have just turned on the Trim Baseboard and Crown molding (from Skin wall) and set it to 4x2 Spruce. I have used the Chair Rail for the mid wall horizontal member also set to 4x2. The advantage of the Trim members is that they automatically break for windows and doors, but the Custom Member can be used for this too. The horzontal pieces above and below the windows and other places are from Interior Accessories / Decorative / Custom Member which is also used for the rafter members.
Probably from Robertss and my last few posts you have too many ideas now and don't know where to start!!
Allan