Allan and Cad man
Below are the 3 Plants: I used in this project: http://forums.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,2316.15.html (http://forums.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,2316.15.html), as photoBoard in appreciation to all your help Thanks
This are PNG format, by converting them to TARGA ( I used Photoshop ) I was able to import as Photoboard and to my Catalog without the need to add magenta background and have a transparent background
They are easy to add a magenta background as well
Also if you go to this link I believe they have the gumtree and others to add to your catalog library ;)
http://xfrog.com/130-free-xfrogplants-now-available/
Thanks Allan for the info concerning the uploading image file size into the forum I Totally understand :)
Robert,
Thanks for the images. Allan, I've tried to post the gumtree pic but it was too large for the forum (at 11MB zipped)...so here's a cut-down version, sorry.
Gaz
Your welcome Cad ;)
If you open a "New" photoshop and set Preset-Web/Size-Wigth 800/Height 600/Res 150/Background Content- Transparent.
File- Place/ choose your tree w/magenta image /enter/ then save it as JPG or PNG.
You should be able to attach the file in the Forum ;)
Robert
Thanks Robert and Garry for sharing the trees. They look great on line but I have not actually used them yet.
Bear in mind that you cannot use JPG with magenta for transparency or you will end up with a pink fringe. JPG does not maintain the colour consistantly across the area but blends slightly near the edges giving the fringe. Resizing can sometimes have the same effect, even in BMP. Evan the slightest deviation from true magenta will cause the problem.
I am looking forward to trying the new trees now - when I can make the time! ::)
Allan
Allan,
Don't bother with the Gum tree, I just tried the cut-down version, and as you suggested, it bled terribly...more purple than olive! :'(
This is why I'm not a fan of using the magenta back with trees and chose to use trees with transparent background, imported as a TARGA file.
The forum won't permit TARGA files but the trees I posted are PNG files with Transparent Background by converting them to TARGA they work great.
Robert
Hi Robert, Garry and everyone,
You will be pleased to know that TARGA (.tga) is now allowed. I have just activated it. :)
Allan
Thaks for updating the pages Allan. I used Robert's suggestion and tried the Gum Tree as a Targa image and I LOVE it...nice clear sharp image, no purple fuzz...but unfortunately still too large for the forum (37MB zipped!)...but here's how it looks in TFP...
Now that I know that it works so well I'm off to take some more high-res tree photos to build up a quality tree catalogue...
Gaz
Very pleased with the Targa quality, here's the Gum Tree in the back yard of my most recent design for a client...
Gaz
Awesome!!! ;)
Did you render in Basic ore Advance? ???
I also tried to attach my Palm and Trees in the forum but had the same issue about file size, but if you attach in the forum as a PNG file it will be with transparen background and can be downloaded then turned to targa file again. ;)
Robert
Thanks Robert...I downloaded your PNG files, resaved them as Targa files, but they'd lost so much detail that the final render had almost no leaves on the trees! I'll cut down my Gum Tree Targa photo and try to repost for others to use, but the trade off will be a much less detailed final result.
This version of the gum Tree is 25% of the original, and zipped down to 1.35MB, so it'll upload to the forum, don't know how good the final render will be though. If anyone makes use of it I'd like to see the results.
Gaz
Cad
Was the render Basic or advance?
I opened my PNG "using Photoshop and then saved as TARGA and it works great when rendering in Basic, it render with broken leafs when rendering in Advance. This is why I wanted to Know which render did you use, Basic or Advance?
Robert
Quote from: the cad man on June 26, 2012, 07:19:03 PM
Thaks for updating the pages Allan. I used Robert's suggestion and tried the Gum Tree as a Targa image and I LOVE it...nice clear sharp image, no purple fuzz...but unfortunately still too large for the forum (37MB zipped!)...but here's how it looks in TFP...
Now that I know that it works so well I'm off to take some more high-res tree photos to build up a quality tree catalogue...
Gaz
Allan, I see the shadow for this tree has the tree trunk shadow offset from base of the tree. Is this a bug? Is there a work around? Does IMSI/TFP people know about it? or should we post this as a future version request?
This is a text I did to learn about BASIC & ADVANCE EXTERIOR render when using imported Photoboard / Catalog / or 3ds object trees
1- Beach Test 1 is a "BASIC" render, using targa file imported photoboard Palms and Catalog trees, flower. and Bushes
2- Beach Test 4 is a "ADVANCE" render, using targa file imported photoboard Palms and Catalog trees, flower. and Bushes
3- Beach Test 5 is a "BASIC" render, using 3ds object file imported Palms and Catalog trees, flower. and Bushes
In tried to RENDER ADVANCE using 3ds Palms and Catalog trees, flower. and Bushes and the render will stop rendering and not responding ??? :(
Robert
Doug, Good Eye there ;D
I noticed it as well and in my test you get the answer ;)
The shadow offset happens when rendering the targa Palm photoboard in Advance render for me. ::)
(See sample Beach Test 4)
The shadow worked great when rendering the Targa palm photoboard in Basic render.
(See sample Beach Test 1)
Allan mention to me that Basic is better exterior render and Advance for interior render ::)
Robert
Quote from: funrob29 on June 26, 2012, 09:38:37 PM
Allan mention to me that Basic is better exterior render and Advance for interior render ::)
Robert
I sorta agree depending of what is meant by "better" render.
Basic is usually more often used to render correctly (or for faster trials/tests), or render at all, for exterior views.
However I have made many exterior render views and I think the quality of advanced render is far better....in that the shadow details are less harsh and more realistic compared to real photos. But the render times can be a lot longer.
A test is to take a photo, under different lighting conditions (full sun and fully cloudy days) of a known location, camera [position and angle, and time and date. Then make a 3D model of the scene and render it set to same real conditions and compare to real photos side by side. This will let you know what looks best or most useful to your projects.
Such a best test case is a "before" and "after" remodel or addition.....and compare the actual to your rendered image(s) as the project is proposed to see if the real completed work matches what you expected it to look like based upon TFP design tools.
My findings show advanced renders are much better/more realistic; at least for me....you may have different results.....but then you will know how best to do projects in your own way and have a repeatable process for your design work.
And be aware, the render results are different between basic and advanced, not only for shadows but colors, textures, and sun shadows (sun position seems to be different between basic and advanced even tho they are set to same location, day, date, time). This can be important if you are studying overhangs, roofs, trees, etc. for the sun or shade they provide at different times of the year.
To find out for yourself...make a scene and compare everything in the scene with side by side basic and advanced renders (with render variables all the same where possible)....look at colors, textures, shadows, sunlit areas, shadow angles ...if you have Photoshop or similar, overlay one over the other to help see the differences with top layer set to partial transparency or set to a mode to see the differences in color and luminosity so the differences stand out...you may be surprised.
Doug That is what I did in my test above.
The issue was with the imported targa Palms as photoboard and the catalog trees in advance render the leaf where broken up and shadow Offset, was terrible. But the same scene with the same setting rendered in Basic was way better , look at my sample
Robert
Quote from: funrob29 on June 26, 2012, 09:02:59 PM
Was the render Basic or advance?
Hi Robert, I used the Advanced render mode...even though the photoboard trees do render better in Basic mode, my clients aren't interrested in the trees, it's the house and the fall of sunlight in summer and winter they care about. So for me it's high quality Targa photoboard trees and Advanced rendering to get "the best of both worlds".
Gaz
Hi Garry, Robert, Doug and all,
Been busy so a bit of delay - sorry.
Well I tried one of the Targa trees with no sucess at all - obviously not transparent even though it was turned on when saved (unless there is something else that has to be done). Converted to a Magenta BMP it was fine.
The tests below were to check out the shadows between Basic and Advanced. I did not get as big a missalignment but obviously not right in Advanced. What was interesting was the Targa tree - the angle of the image changed and the shadow changed drastically and clearly wrong when the sun is coming from such an acute angle. Basic gave an ultra thin shadow, from the edge of the image, as you would expect, while Advanced seems to create a shadow as though the billboard tree had not rotated. Makes me wonder whether there is some code in Advanced that renders the photoboard as if it is stationary so you still get a shadow and maybe this is causing the missalignment.
Advanced has also lost the leaves and is far too bright for 7am! Basic is obviously a far better render and I have usually found this to be the case for exterior views, unless the view is close to a building so that you get the benefit of bounced light to soften shadow around the building. In full cloudless sunlight, shadows are very harsh (here in Australia they are anyway! ;) ) but on verandahs etc with reflected light, rather than direct sunlight, Advanced does as better job, makging the building look more realistic.
I will get the developers to have a look at this, but I fear far to late for version 17! Hopefully they have already found it and fixed it!
Allan
Happy to see you picked up on what I was trying to my point out with my Basic and Advance sample!
Didn't you see the reply about my posted trees being PNG cause Targa file is to large to post in the forum?
If you save the PNG trees I posted and " OPEN in PhotoShop it would have a transparent Background, "THEN to Save as TARGA to import as PHOTOBOARD" ???
Robert
Hi Robert,
Quote from: funrob29 on June 27, 2012, 10:58:15 PM
If you save the PNG trees I posted and " OPEN in PhotoShop it would have a transparent Background, "THEN to Save as TARGA to import as PHOTOBOARD" ???
That is EXACTLY what I did - with just one slight exception - I do not have Photoshop so used PaintShop Pro. When I opened the PNG the background was transparent. I saved it as TARGA and it was still transparent. Imported to TFP and it wasn't. Did it again and made sure transparency was enabled, which it was and the background was still transparent in PSP but again not in TFP. Maybe there is some other setting in PSP that needs to be adjusted even though it is displaying it as transparent.
Yes there is a very distinct difference in the trees between the two render options!
Allan
Hi guys,
I've added another couple of high-res Targa images to my collection now, including: the Gum Tree, a Callalilly, a Mother-in-law's Tongue and a Diosma. Each of them is far too large to post here, but I thought once I have enough images I might burn them to CD and anyone wanting a copy I could mail one off to them.
As you can see from the strange shadows, I rendered these in Advanced mode.
Gaz
Hi Garry,
Can you please try reducing the size of one of the Targa images to see if you can get it under 4MB? Try it first to make sure it has not broken the transparency, then save it to the forum (or email it to me - alches AT iinet.net.au). I would just like to try one to verify that it does work - converting the PNG int TGA in PSP certainly didn't.
Also, your latest image - Basic or Advanced? How is the gum tree set - billboard or stationary? Can you try with the same render settings but with the gum tree the opposite 'rotation' to what you had? I just want to see the effect on the shadow alignment.
Allan
Allan here's a dramatically cut down Callalilly, at 3.45MB. I'm just rendering some samples of the Gum Tree for you now, it'll be up in a minute.
Interresting results Allan...as you can see the shadow offset in the Advanced mode when the tree was a rotating "billboard", and you see the results of a stationary Photoboard, both at 0 degrees and at 180 degrees...bizarre!
Gaz
Here are the renders of the greatly cut down Calalilly at Basic and Advanced renders...they don't turn out too bad, probably look a bit better at Basic at this level of complexity...even the shadows look better.
Gaz
Hi Garry,
Which is which - Basic first I assume.
Well I tried it but with no success at all. Renders in Basic had a white background, although transparent in the dialog boxes, but in Advance it crashes totally. Have tried it wtice with two separate imports and both worked in Basic (but not transparent) and both crashed the program in Advanced.
I have a suspicion that Targa is not officially supported, maybe because of some issues still. In all the discussions, even with the programming area, there has been no mention of it as an alternative for transparency. Anyway I will make specific enquiries and find out.
Allan
By the shadow offset I belive #2 is Advance ;)
Robert
Hi Gaz./ Doug
Like you figured out Gaz, in the different position sample, the correct setting is Rotating, Stationary is a NOT.
What I figured out is that the shadow was created at the original position of the rotating tree.
So Allan that is the setting issue to fix. Not an essay thing, to married a rotating Flat object and have a shadow marrie rotation and light ANGLE . Is like making Love with One Top (FLAT) and two Bottoms (ROTATION-ANGLE), LOL ;D
Robert
Thanks for the Callally Gaz
If the Targa file is not created in Photoshop by starting with a Transparent Page you will get a White Background.
Also other paint programs automatically start with White Page or will turn the imported Transparency to a solid Grey Page!
The Only way I can post a transparent object to the forum and download with Transparency is created in PhotoShop as a PNG
Robert
Hi Garry and Robert,
Just had another look at the original PNG images and I think I can see the reason for the separation of shadow and tree trunk. The tree is not in the centre of the image, as posted on the forum. There is a large area of blank space on the right. This would be why I did not get such a large separation because I trimmed off all the extra space. It does not answer the question about the shadow difference when between Basic and Advanced though, so there is still something to investigate here.
Allan
Quote from: Allan Chesney on June 27, 2012, 12:47:22 PM
Advanced has also lost the leaves and is far too bright for 7am! Basic is obviously a far better render and I have usually found this to be the case for exterior views, unless the view is close to a building so that you get the benefit of bounced light to soften shadow around the building. In full cloudless sunlight, shadows are very harsh (here in Australia they are anyway! ;) ) but on verandahs etc with reflected light, rather than direct sunlight, Advanced does as better job, makging the building look more realistic.
I will get the developers to have a look at this, but I fear far to late for version 17! Hopefully they have already found it and fixed it!
Allan
I'm not a developer but have experience creating web design using Flash and Dreamweaver, writing (some) CODES... ::)
I think by writing the Code that makes the shadow rotate The (transparent?) PhotoBoard OBJECT to the light ANGLE separate from OBJECT Rotation maintaining the base (center?) of the object, so it wont be OFFSET this would fix this issue. ??? ::)
Hope I explained myself... :-\
Robert
We getting There ;D
The Shadow is SET by the "LIGHT ANGLE"
The Object is SET by the "CAMERA ANGLE"
They are at "DIFFERENT POSITIONS", causing the Offset result ;)
Robert
Quote from: funrob29 on June 28, 2012, 12:04:54 PM
We getting There ;D
The Shadow is SET by the "LIGHT ANGLE"
The Object is SET by the "CAMERA ANGLE"
They are at "DIFFERENT POSITIONS", causing the Offset result ;)
Robert
Basic works with no problem because of the simple LIGHT_CAMERA settings
Advance, Global, Time, Sun Light, etc. settings have a conflict with the Camera Angle of a PhotoBoard Object ;)
Good morning (in Australia) gentlemen,
As you both guessed, the top example was the Basic render, the bottom Advanced.
Allan, I also got a white background when I used the cut down Targa image untill I reopened it in Photoshop, selected and deleted the background then resaved it.
Also, when I tried to use the cut down image, Basic rendered quickly and Advanced seemed to "freeze" as you experienced till I realized that the program was "waiting" for me to click on the "Step 2: Raytrace" button. Then it rendered quickly and clearly. It'd never done that to me before, but once I realized what was happening I had no more problems (touch wood).
Gaz
Just added a nice little Conifer to my ever growing library of photo-realistic plants. As you pointed out Allan, having the plant symmetrically centred helps with getting a better shadow.
Gaz
I'm back with problems with TFP
I renamed, deleted parts not needed for presentation, reduced Terrain, Trees, site Boundaries, etc. reducing size project Serena Lakes Plaza
Is Not responding when trying to view in 2D Designer view, I have spend all day uninstall and reinstall, 4 times and getting ready to repeat for the Fifth Time >:(
Robert
...how disappointing and frustrating.
Quote from: the cad man on June 28, 2012, 06:50:49 PM
Just added a nice little Conifer to my ever growing library of photo-realistic plants. As you pointed out Allan, having the plant symmetrically centred helps with getting a better shadow.
Gaz
Did you use targa or Magenta image?
Robert
These days I'm only using TARGA images at 14 Megapixel resolution to get clean photo-realisitic results.
Gaz
Hi Robert,
Quote from: funrob29 on June 28, 2012, 07:01:08 PM
I'm back with problems with TFP
I renamed, deleted parts not needed for presentation, reduced Terrain, Trees, site Boundaries, etc
I still suspect a corruption in that project and if so reinstalling will not make any difference. Have you checked the wall joins yet? Dont forget if you want to follow up on this to go back to the other thread so we keep this one about photoboard trees etc.
Allan
Good morning Garry, (just afternoon for you!)
Quote from: the cad man on June 28, 2012, 06:00:17 PM
Allan, I also got a white background when I used the cut down Targa image untill I reopened it in Photoshop, selected and deleted the background then resaved it.
Can you post copy of your small 'retransparentised' TGA image again so I can try it? I want to be able to test all these questions thoroughly before I refer them to the developers. I cannot get a transparent TGA to work in TFP which is why I want to try one that has worked with others.
Do you have WinZip's ZipSend? It enables emailing of very large files through ordinary mailboxes.
Allan
Hi Allan (afternoon for you too now I suspect),
I only have jzip, which reduces the files by about half, but the originals are HUGE. I'll cut down an image again for you as I don't use the smaller ones and deleted it!
Meanwhile here's my latest build for a client using my new high-res bushes and plants..rendered at Basic.
Note that at this distance the shadow problems are almost irrelevant, and by placing a plant in shade (like next to the fence) makes it REALLY irrelevant!
Have the other file up for you shortly.
Gaz
...a small conifer in Targa format...
Just noticed I am no longer a "Newbie" but a junior member! Promotion! ;D
Gaz
Allan
Posted is a Targas of a Ficus tree That I would like to see if you're able to download with transparency and what shadow result you get when using as Photoboard import in Advance.
I Know the Targa works great in Basic work great
Robert
Quote from: the cad man on June 28, 2012, 10:14:12 PM
...a small conifer in Targa format...
Just noticed I am no longer a "Newbie" but a junior member! Promotion! ;D
Gaz
We Graduated Congrat ;D
I tried downloading your conifer and it has a white background not transparent
I downloaded the ficus targa I posted and it has a Transparent background
What happens when you download my ficus ? ???
Robert
Rob,
The first time I downloaded a TARGA image I needed to open the original, delete the white background and resave. This time your Ficus opened with a clear background. I can't try it yet though as my computer is rendering a large file. I'll try it later and post the result.
Gaz
Hey Rob,
Here's your Ficus dropped in with the other Targa images. As you can see, it opened just fine but the low res images loose so much detail, especially leaves, on Advanced render.
I wanted to walk around the neighbourhood today and take some more high res photos of plants but it's been raining here non-stop all day and the forcast is for more rain till Wednesday NEXT WEEK!
Gaz
Thanks Gaz ;)
Robert
Hi Robert and Garry,
Well those tests proved interesting.
The Targa file worked in Basic but lost leaves in Advanced (as did the Magenta one but the TGA lost a lot more).
With the Targa image stationary, the shadow in Advanced was in reverse and in Billboard was OK but both were missaligned.
Conclusions:
Targa or BMP Magenta are OK for Basic renders (Stationary or Billboard)
Targa is useless in Advanced render if Stationary (loses leaved and shadow is reversed)
Targa shadow is Ok in Billboard but loses most of the leaves.
BMP Magenta is OK in Basic or Advanced but looses some leaves in Advanced.
In Targa or BMP the tree trunk must be in the centre of the image for the shadow to align in Advanced.
Unfortunately the loss of leaves makes the Targa image useless for Advanced renders. I have not seen BMP trees lose leaves like this previously either - only the ones converted from Targa have done this - not sure why that is.
Congratulations on your Promotions! :) It s all automatic my the way - nothing to do with me (obviously triggered buy the number of posts).
Allan
Quote from: Allan Chesney on June 29, 2012, 11:36:42 AM
Conclusions:
Targa or BMP Magenta are OK for Basic renders (Stationary or Billboard)
Targa is useless in Advanced render if Stationary (loses leaved and shadow is reversed)
Targa shadow is Ok in Billboard but loses most of the leaves.
BMP Magenta is OK in Basic or Advanced but looses some leaves in Advanced.
In Targa or BMP the tree trunk must be in the centre of the image for the shadow to align in Advanced.
Unfortunately the loss of leaves makes the Targa image useless for Advanced renders. I have not seen BMP trees lose leaves like this previously either - only the ones converted from Targa have done this - not sure why that is.
Allan
I've doing test as well and will post the results soon, I believe that Advance render in Stationary the Camera has to be facing the Targa or Magenta tree for the shadow to align. Advance render in Billboard the shadow won't align
Robert
This are the Test results using Targa & 3Ds trees in Basic and Advance rendering.
I believe that Advance render in Stationary the Camera has to be facing the Targa or Magenta tree for the shadow to align. Advance render in Billboard the shadow won't align
Robert
This are 3D Palms with the original Material saved in the TFP Material Library
Some of the Leafs disappear in the Advance render. :(
The shadow works perfect in Basic and Advance rendering ;)
Robert
Hi Robert,
Quote from: funrob29 on June 29, 2012, 04:50:22 PM
I believe that Advance render in Stationary the Camera has to be facing the Targa or Magenta tree for the shadow to align. Advance render in Billboard the shadow won't align
Yes that is correct. If a photoboard is set to Stationary it must face the camera (or it will distort the shape) and the shadow will align - which is the problem with stationary of course because if you move the camera you must realighn the photoboard. The advantage of Stationary is that you can rotate the photoboard, so the same tree for example can look like a different one, especially if the height and width are changed too.
Stationary can also be used to make the sun light on an image correct also. If the sun is from the wrong side on the image, then turn it around and the sun will be on the correct side to match the model.
You cannot rotate a billboard image - it will always face the camera and as we have seen the shadow will not align unless the tree trunk is central - which makes sense and is probably not a programming error and could not even be fixed by code, as it would not have a way to determine if the trunk was central.
The thing that worrries me most about it now is the drastic loss of leaves in advanced render and the much lighter image.
Interesting the trees etc from the gardening encyclopedia do not have the loss of leave problem although they do still render much lighter and of course are very poor resolution in most cases. The are part of the catalogue so this is probably why resolution is so low. With 7,500 of them at high resolution there would probably be serious memory issues.
Allan
Thanks,
I agree and understand the shadow, camera issues in Advance and happy to have a way to accommodate ;).
The Lost of leaf is disappointing, leaving me with one option, bad quality plants having use catalog plants only to avoid leaf lost and bad lighting. Hope this can be resolve.
If you check my new post in the Help forum I provide samples of 3d and photoboard import.
Look what happens to the 3D awning frame created in TC in Advance render, it looses some of the pipes in the awning frame like the trees leaf in 3D and Photoboard, ironically the lost pipes appear in the shadow ???
Hope this could be fix ;)
Robert