Hi,
I started this because I use TurboCad Pro V12 & V16 to create 3D objects and 3D XFROG PLANT imported into TurboFLOORPLAN Home Landscaping Pro V16, To create the project "Serena Lakes Plaza Shopping Center" and I was having render error, using Advance render.
Allan has been very helpful and suggested my project might be corrupt and to do test deselecting elements to get to the corrupt element.
One of the elements I found was a 3ds Palm tree I imported from XFROG PLANTS, that would import without texture colors (Texture would Turn Grey).I will go to Property/ Appearance/Components/ and by choosing Landscape Materials I would make the leaf /using the grass material, the Trunk/ a Wood material, etc until the Palm tree had texture color.
I did a test of the Palm tree by itself but in will get a render error...., in Advance rendering. Finally by using Green Color Material for Leaf/ Wood for Trunk I was able to render in Advance render.
I learn that I needed to save the original XFROG textures in the TFP Texture File.
(The sample below are not the original XFROG TEXTURES I will post results with originals textures later)
Sample below are with TFP materials Basic and Advance render:
This are the 3D XFROG PLANTS Royal Palm 3ds, files after I saved the original materials to TFP Material Library
1- Basic render test
2 Advance render Test
Robert
This is are the 3ds Entrance Awning with frame created with TC V19 and imported to TFP V16
1- Basic render
2- Advance render
Allan, in the Advance render take a look how the Awning Frame columns is missing the outer vertical polls in the structure but it shows in the Shadow. ??? :o
Is this another issue for the developers? ???
Robert
This is are the 3ds CubaRicua Store outer neon Sign created with TC V19 and imported to TFP V16
1- Basic render
2- Advance render
Quote from: funrob29 on June 29, 2012, 08:46:31 PM
This is are the 3ds Entrance Awning with frame created with TC V19 and imported to TFP V16
1- Advance render
Allan, in the Advance render take a look how the Awning Frame columns is missing the outer vertical polls in the structure but it shows in the Shadow. ??? :o
Is this another issue for the developers? ???
Robert
Allan check the lost of pipe in the frame but appear in the shadow in the images above ::)
This 3D Awning and metal Frame I created in TC Pro V19 and imported as a 3ds. file to TFP Home Landscape Pro V16 :o
Robert
Hi Robert,
What do you have as a texture on these columns? If you just have a Colour, try changing it to a texture, such as one of the Paints. The Paints are not colours but image samples (BMP for accuracy). There are instances where colours become transparent or relective which should be fixed in the next release but if you are using a colour this may explain it. Can't think of any other cause.
Allan
I believe I used Metal texture, I don't remember now if I re texture in TFP or is using the original texture from TC.
The Awning canvas & Awning Frames are separate 3D objects. I know I had to re texture the Canvas with TFP canvas material
I just downloaded Metal textures from the Link Rob posted, and see if they work with no issues
I will check and retry
Robert
Hi Robert,
Personally I would do the testing with proven materials such as Paint, rather than imported materials to be on the safe side. Even with something like this, although the structure may be made of 'metal' it is the Paint that is seen in reality.
Allan
Quote from: Allan Chesney on June 30, 2012, 06:23:54 PM
Hi Robert,
Personally I would do the testing with proven materials such as Paint, rather than imported materials to be on the safe side. Even with something like this, although the structure may be made of 'metal' it is the Paint that is seen in reality.
Allan
Hi Allan,
Test 1 is Basic with imported metal color from the Steel web site link. ;D
Test 1 is Advance with imported metal color from the Steel web site link. :(
Test 2 is Advance with Color from TFP Materials. :'(
Test 3 is Advance with Benjamin Moore Paint Color from TFP Materials. ::)
Advance for Exterior render has MAJOR PROBLEMS. :-[
Robert
Hi Robert,
I notice that the frame under than canopy has also disappeared along with the corners of the pillars.
Any chance of posting or emailing this object so I can experiment with it? (original 3DS if not too big)
Did another tree test, closer up, to try to see what is happening. Even before you render you can see a 'haze' around the Targa image and to a lesser extend the BMP Magenta version - looks as though this is what disappears in Advanced render. On my photo tree this is not evident. When you look at the last real close up image before rendering the difference is very obvious. When rendered however, there is still some shrinkage of the 'open' area of the leaves but the 'dense ' seems to stay in tact.
Allan
Hi Robert,
If I remember correctly, that is a result of the member not being 'normal to the camera'. This is similar to CAD Mans discussion of black walls. In walls you can set to 'Force to be Exterior'.
Did you make these in TCAD? If so have you tried exploding them to surfaces. If when you explode all the work disappears , then they are already surfaces.
Because Radiosity bounces light all around in the model it can read some surfaces as invisible.
If you could post the original file I could test it. (not the 3ds version, the TCAD version)
Jack
Quote from: Jack Zimmer on July 01, 2012, 08:51:42 AM
If I remember correctly, that is a result of the member not being 'normal to the camera'. This is similar to CAD Mans discussion of black walls. In walls you can set to 'Force to be Exterior'.
Did you make these in TCAD? If so have you tried exploding them to surfaces. If when you explode all the work disappears , then they are already surfaces.
Hi Allan,
Yes I created it in TCAD Pro V19 Trial, I currently have TCAD Pro V12 and the original file won't open in the older version. Also the awning and Frame were created in one file that included the total project so is to large to e-mail or post. :(
You read my mind the missing straight pipes where Simple Extrude and the angle braces were Rail Sweep.
I'm checking to see I I saved it only as 3ds or DWG & DFX as well, then I'm going to open in TCAD V12 and check your suggestion to explode. ;)
Thanks
Robert
Hi Robert,
I created something like what you have in TFP and it renders fine in Basic and Advanced. The image below is the Advanced one. I know it is a bit smaller than yours and I think, after looking closer at yours, that the frame could be a round channel (?). I had already done the square one, so not worth the trouble converting it all to round, when I just wanted to satisfy myself that it would work. The roof is just a straight TFP one of course and the frame was from TFP Members, although I did export and import again them again, so that the render was from a 3DS, although a TFP created one, not a TC one.
Makes me wonder whether there is something different happening with the 3DS coming from TCad - maybe what Jack is referring too (which goes over my head I'm afraid!!! ::) ).
Allan
Quote from: funrob29 on July 01, 2012, 10:48:01 AM
Hi Allan,
I'm checking to see I I saved it only as 3ds or DWG & DFX as well, then I'm going to open in TCAD V12 and check your suggestion to explode. ;)
Thanks
Robert
I Checked and even tho I had saved files as DFX, DWG, etc. I was able to open and insert ONLY the 3ds file in TCAD V12 and exploded and there was some issues with Line pen size set at none, surface was 3D NONE MATERIAL ETC.
I undid the explode and sellected all, added pen size, color, and material and re exploded. I created new layers and assign new layers to seperate into sections and analize each object so I can recreate and try New tests. I will keep you inform with the results. ;
Robert
Hi Robert,
I did a 'Simple Extrude' of a 'circle' in TCAD and saved it as a 3DS file , I didn't explode, it is a Solid.
Both Basic and Advanced render worked fine. So, that is not the problem.
Jack
Hi Robert,
To the circle simple Extrude, I added a polylines in a z pattern and then used a Sweep of a circle on the Z polyline. I didn't go through the work of doing anything to scale, I had to copy one section of Z sweep to do the upper half +.
The side Extrudes are on thier own layer set to blue,
The Sweeps are on another layer set to black.
All were saved as 3DS and imported in TFPlan.
Works fine with Advanced Render (but slow because Advance renders slow with Sun 'on'.
Jack
Quote from: Jack Zimmer on July 01, 2012, 08:10:30 PM
The side Extrudes are on thier own layer set to blue,
The Sweeps are on another layer set to black.
All were saved as 3DS and imported in TFPlan.
Works fine with Advanced Render (but slow because Advance renders slow with Sun 'on'.
Jack
Did you import one 3ds. of the side Extrude and one of the Sweep, or one together and did you make them a Group ?
I'm exhausted and ready to call it a night after re-creating and re-testing the frame with and without the awning all day.
Tomorrow I will post the results, NOT GOOD NEWS :(
Thanks for your Help Jack
Robert
Hi Robert,
The tcw file was just saved as a 3DS file and imported into TFPlan. I put 'parts' of a model on seperate layers and give them colors (materails don't export from TCAD).
Anything with the same color gets changed when you apply materials. So all four corner supports are blue , etc.
The model was not grouped. But it was imported as one unit and can be resized as such.
Jack
Did you Import into Exterior Accessory. I don't understand when you said model on SEPARATE LAYERS, TFPlan doesn't have Layer options, did you mean , example: Extrude pipe as a Exterior Accessory and the Sweep Z as a Exterior Structure ? ???
Also they where Two separate 3ds file imported to TFPlan then you Duplicated 4 Post and 4 Z sides ?
Sorry But I want to make sure I understand, Cause so far I have tried as you suggested and my results are Freaky to say the least ::)
I'm trying again from scratch and see if maybe there was something wrong with the original drawing :-[
Robert
Hi Robert and Jack,
No doubt Jack will reply but since you are working on it now I MAY be able to throw some light on it. The Layers Jack referrs to would be layers in TCad. TFP does have layers (called Locations - first floor, second floor etc.- or whatever you want to call them) but Jack said he imported it as one 3DS file. The separate layers in the original TC model I think (Jack will confirm) were so that different parts of the model are assigned one colour each part, so it is easy to edit the colours in TFP. As in Jack's example image, all 4 legs are blue because all were on one Layer in TC - so all would change at once when assigned a texture in TFP - instead of you having to change each leg separately. (Obviously that needs some thought beforehand - lest you wanted to have one leg different - you couldn't)
Trying to understand this myself Jack so hope that is correct. Please explain if not, for both Robert and me!
Allan
Thanks Allan You Got my confusion in Jack's Helpful suggestions!
I already always imported 3ds files separate for the same reasons you pointed out Allan. ;)
Robert
Hi Robert,
The layers were in TCAD, zero layer is always left 'ON', then I transfered the outside supports to a new layer and the angled bars to another layer. They could have all been on one layer but as Allan says, by seperating them they can be better controled and have different textures applied in TFPlan.
TFPlan does have Layers, If you look at an objects Properites , under the Basic tab >bottom right 'Display' shows the layers of a BBQ in the attached.
I was wondering if when you did the Advanced Render you have made sure that 'Raytrace' is checked. First Radiosity is calculated, then if check, Raytrace.
If you do not have Raytrace checked, that may be the reason parts are missing.
Jack
Hi Jack
Raytrace has always been checked
(The layers were in TCAD, zero layer is always left 'ON', then I transfered the outside supports to a new layer and the angled bars to another layer. They could have all been on one layer but as Allan says, by seperating them they can be better controled and have different textures applied in TFPlan.) ???
You Lost me there :-[
I will analized your explanation and hope to make sence of it when my brain is fresh :)
I also Downloaded your sample image and try to figure out as well ;)
Thanks
I'm posting new Test Result Sample, Check them out :o
Robert
This are the result of the tests.
Robert
This are the Program settings when rendering
Robert
Quote from: Jack Zimmer on July 02, 2012, 08:39:29 PM
The layers were in TCAD, zero layer is always left 'ON', then I transfered the outside supports to a new layer and the angled bars to another layer. They could have all been on one layer but as Allan says, by seperating them they can be better controled and have different textures applied in TFPlan.
TFPlan does have Layers, If you look at an objects Properites , under the Basic tab >bottom right 'Display' shows the layers of a BBQ in the attached.
Jack
Hi Jack I analyze and I understand NOW ;)
I follow your explanation and in the Component Display- Name is Material#2/ 2D is ON ( EYE OPEN) and 3D is ON ::)
And as I mention and posted in the Program setting Auto Raytrace is checked ::)
But if you notice the only part that gets render is the circle that was either Extrude or Rail Sweep, if you look real close in my sample they appear as black or white small circles... ::)
Robert
As to your settings, the only ones that affect Rendering would be Hard Accel and the settings for Radiosity , which you have set to 5 and Raytrace which should be increased to 4 (+ of course the other settings in that dialog , Sun on, brightness etc (although brightness normally only affects lights not the sun- not sure about that with radiosity used outdoors)
Does your computer fail with Hardware Acceleration is checked ?
You shouldn't need that off unless you have a 'weak' computer.
You are basically discussing two topics here. One is how to make a model and the other is how to render.
As far as rendering goes, I normally use Radiosity (advanced for interiors) , Basic for exteriors. Radiosity requires something to bounce the light around, like an enclosed room. So it can act up when used outdoors. I don't use it for outside renderings.
Jack
Suggest: (to test render and PC setup, does not test CAD output/conversion/model build)
1. try renders tests with HA off...even if your PC is high end with great vid card, the vid card driver s/w can cause odd problems (or not)...check to see if you have latest or more recent driver. Sometimes the newest drivers start new problems...you may need to find a "sweet spot".
You can change HA on/off easily from within TFP at any time s/w is idle even with project .bld file open....For example may render better off or draw better off or off for certain tools...then "on" for rest of time or vice-versa. (I used to do so on last/old PC)
2. Post test .bld file here for others, on other PC, to render to compare.
Quote from: Jack Zimmer on July 03, 2012, 08:36:24 AM
As to your settings, the only ones that affect Rendering would be Hard Accel and the settings for Radiosity , which you have set to 5 and Raytrace which should be increased to 4 (+ of course the other settings in that dialog , Sun on, brightness etc (although brightness normally only affects lights not the sun- not sure about that with radiosity used outdoors)
Does your computer fail with Hardware Acceleration is checked ?
You shouldn't need that off unless you have a 'weak' computer.
Jack
I checked Hardware Acceleration this Time with this small size file but when rendering the larger projects in Basic or Advance there was issues and the program will stop working and close.
In the Test sample, look how the 4 White small circles in the Base and 4 Black small circle at the Top. the middle of the Pipe is not rendered. ::) ???
Robert
Quote from: Doug.S on July 03, 2012, 10:38:51 AM
Suggest: (to test render and PC setup, does not test CAD output/conversion/model build)
1. try renders tests with HA off...even if your PC is high end with great vid card, the vid card driver s/w can cause odd problems (or not)...check to see if you have latest or more recent driver. Sometimes the newest drivers start new problems...you may need to find a "sweet spot".
You can change HA on/off easily from within TFP at any time s/w is idle even with project .bld file open....For example may render better off or draw better off or off for certain tools...then "on" for rest of time or vice-versa. (I used to do so on last/old PC)
Doug The earlier render the HA was OFF for the reasons I explained , This last posting as you can see the HA was ON. ;)
I just attached the .bld file. ::)
Robert
Hi Robert,
Well obviously the problem is not your PC because mine rendered your file in similar fashion to yours.
To me that says it is a problem with the TC 3DS file in some way. As you saw in my earlier post, a similar structure created in TFP, exported as 3DS and imported again, worked fine.
Allan
Quote from: Allan Chesney on July 03, 2012, 11:25:14 AM
To me that says it is a problem with the TC 3DS file in some way. As you saw in my earlier post, a similar structure created in TFP, exported as 3DS and imported again, worked fine.
Allan
Thanks Allan
I used TC V12 for this tests but the First test with the Awning and Frame I imported 3ds file I had saved created withTC V19 Trial, and as you can see the same happened.
I just exported the 3ds and imported again and the same results ???
Next I'm going to save the TC V12 objects as DXF, then import to TFP V16 and export as 3ds and import again to see if it works ;)
Robert
I opened the test .bld file and did nothing else but render (HA on) adv+raytrace and got similar results.
But my render time was 64+23 sec. (for Q=1500) vs. Robert's 200 + 237 (for Q=500) (see his posted 3D dialog box image)
Allan, How fast was your render?
Suggests Roberts PC can run TFP OK, just slower (like my older XP PC); but his vid card is not up to the task....but that usually just means longer design and render times.
Thanks for the Effort Doug and Allan, ;)
I just open the original in TC V12, Exploded twice, made into 3D Solid gave it a 3D paint Material, Saved as 3ds, imported to TFP as separates. exported and reimported and so far I'm getting same results ::)
Thanks :-[
Robert
Hi Robert,
Lets try something else:
Open a new blank project, insert four round solid columns, reduce their diameter to 25mm (or whatever your pillars are), turn off the terrain and export them as a 3DS. Import them alongside the originals and render. Don't forget to turn off the terrain before you export or it will export also!
Let us know what you get - 8 columns hopefully.
Allan
Allan Im sure this will work.
I know I can create some objects using TFP but there's limitations, one sample is the store signs, so far part of the sign worked but theres others parts that Have to test to see if they will work in Advance render thanks God in Basic it worked. Is not productive and Time consuming to create in TC and not Know what will work and what will Not Work. :(
I design Interior, Exteriors and Landscaping, having realistic plants is a must and the concern is about importing 3ds objects, in this case from TC, AutoCad, and XFROG Plants, to TFP. :-[
Lets Hope that the interior design for the store at Serena Lakes Plaza Shopping Center- Cubaricua TAMALES & PASTELES Supper Club will work correctly with the quality of your Office Design.
This Time consuming Tests was to find out where was the problem and I'm still left unsure wether is My PC, Video Card or the Software. :-\
I'm over my Date line to finish the project. :-[
I Truly appreciate all the Help from You Allan, Doug, Jack and those in this Forum ;D
Thanks
Robert
Hi Robert,
The suggestion to export and import the columns was just to make sure the TFP or your PC was not objecting to 3DS files for some reason. TFP can do most things but as you said there are limitations - getting rounded corners being the most difficult. OK in one direction as in cutting out the floor but to 'round' the curved edge is difficult, needing a member profile to do it.
The reason I have done everyting in TFP if I can, was to avoid the sort of issues that can arise with imported objects. I have never had a probkem with a TFP created 3DS file.
Quote from: funrob29 on July 03, 2012, 09:12:45 PM
... having realistic plants is a must ....
I stopped using 3D plants many years ago, as the realism from photoboards is so much better. The only time I use a 3DS plant these days is hidden behind a photoboard ,if I need to improve the shadow. I usually take my own photo and save as a BMP with Magenta and I have never had a problem. The image below was just a quick example to show photoboard people for Garystan in another post and no special attendion to the plants either, as I was playing with water when I did the original 'lake', but I guarentee that you would not get this realism with 3D trees or it would cost a fortune to purchase them.
The TFP Cafe image was just to demostrate signs from TFP - drawn with walls. I agree probably not a quick as TC (though I have never tried it). This took about 15 min all up. Doesn't even use the lighting functions - just a 3DS with the texture made Emmissive.
Both images incidentally were done with Advanced render and no visible detrimental effect on the trees etc.
Allan
Quote from: Allan Chesney on July 03, 2012, 11:49:53 PM
The reason I have done everyting in TFP if I can, was to avoid the sort of issues that can arise with imported objects. I have never had a probkem with a TFP created 3DS file.
Allan
Allan The problem is not with 3DS files created in TFP. The Problem is with 3DS files created in TC, imported to TFP. :o
And I already have the 3D Plants from a PRO SOFTWARE the Plants in TFP do NOT look real and really I don't have the Time nor want to spend GAS driving to find Plant to take a picture then convert with magenta to have a plant that also has issues as a photoboard by loosing leaves and weird edges, and shadows out of whack in advance rendering. The TFP Flowers look like cut up cardboard props :-[
I'm Disappointed :-[
Robert
Quotegave it a 3D paint Material
FYI - TCAD doesn't export materials. you should just assign a color to the parts of a 3D object. Each part can be a different color.
What happens when you do an Advanced render of the attached bld?
This shows that the TCAD generated model is working well in TFPlan (so TCAD export of 3DS file is not a problem)
It shows that an Advanced rendering in TFPlan works , so it is not the problem.
That leaves computer or user as reason for error.
Issue with Plants
TFPlan doesn't have good plants, never has.
My simple solution is to take those found in Realtime Landscape Pro and add them as Photo Boards to TFPlan. I use Realtime for other things and borrowing it's plants isn't a difficult exercise.
As far as shadows not looking good in Advanced rendering mode, don't use Advanced, it uses Radiosity which bounces light around. There is nothing in an exterior view to 'bounce' off, so you get odd results. If you use Basic for exteriors your tree shadows should be fine.
Google Warhouse has 3D Trees and with my 3 year old computer, I have no problems rendering them. But I do limit their placement to either the foreground or within view. Any distant view trees are better using photo boards.
Note in the attached that the Realtime scroll bar is in middle on the right and 5 rows of trees are represented.
There are about 60 more rows to top and 60 more rows to the bottom of just trees.
Also note that there are a ton of other plants , flowers , shrubs etc
AND that is just the 2D Plant image part of the program, you have a ton of other options available too, like animation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4vk3BE_QMg&feature=BFa&list=UUIdjN0ItLqjjMc5wGzyrXBQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4vk3BE_QMg&feature=BFa&list=UUIdjN0ItLqjjMc5wGzyrXBQ)
Jack
Hi Jack and Robert,
I notice Jack, that your image of the Truss Support does not have the horizontal bars at the mid point. I rendered it and noticed they were missing, but then noticed they did not show in 3D view or on your image on the forum, so I assume they were not there in the original.
I agree with you both, that the existing plants in TFP leave a lot to be desired. OK in distance maybe but not otherwise. Apart from taking my own photos, I have actually used trees from a Google search "tree on white background" - hundreds come up and some are quite large. It is an easy exercise just to use the Colour Replace tool to change the white background to Magenta. "Tree on Transparent background" comes up with a few good sources also but many are paid for. There is also an Australian company that produces some excellent Australian trees and shrubs, already in a BIM file ready to transfer into your catalogue, but I don't suppose you have many Australian varieties in your area! They are excelent quality, in three resolutions. I used some in the 'lake' image above and they did not appear to lose leaves in Advanced render either. Perfect of course in Basic.
Allan
Quote from: Jack Zimmer on July 04, 2012, 08:05:14 AM
Quotegave it a 3D paint Material
FYI - TCAD doesn't export materials. you should just assign a color to the parts of a 3D object. Each part can be a different color.
What happens when you do an Advanced render of the attached bld?
This shows that the TCAD generated model is working well in TFPlan (so TCAD export of 3DS file is not a problem)
It shows that an Advanced rendering in TFPlan works , so it is not the problem.
That leaves computer or user as reason for error.
Thanks Jack
Just what I was hoping for, a file that worked to try in my PC with my TFPlan software.
I purchased the TFPL V16 download in April 2012 and during the installation I would get a error message 1934 registry info ??? and when opening TFPLan it will freeze and wouldn't let me register , I would have to force shut the PC, it took 3 weeks and two e-mail download links to finally have the software work, I spoke with David, Chris, they have the info, I send David Screen shot of the problem, etc.
I just downloaded your bld. file and will get back with the results.
Thanks
Robert
Another issue to watch for using "billboard" trees, regardless of the source, is the lighting and the edges.
Often the lighting on the tree photo does not match the sun direction of the TFP scene and it looks wrong. For example photo taken at high noon which makes top of plant/tree bright; but TFP sun set to afternoon/4pm and the plant/trees should be side lit...and direction from left, right, or back (backlit) does not match...subtle but hauntingly wrong!
Also doing the "cutout" one needs to be very careful to avoid background creep; especially at edges or places of transparency. Photoshop has good tools for selecting and removing backgrounds....but look at TFP trees and you may see white edged pixels that were missed in inserting magenta color.
Look carefully at Allan's people by a lake...see the various wrong lighting on billboard objects. I'm not attacking Allan's work as he did this as a very quick example for a different purpose....but some billboards don't match the brightness or sunlight/shadow on them (not the shadow on the ground concern) and they look like photos glued onto the scene.
With carefull selection of photo image billboards they can be convincing...just need to match all the variables to the scene using excellent transparency.
Another alternative: Use a real 3D plant/tree (such as .3ds) in a scene all alone with the same sun/light source you plan to use in final TFP render. Render the tree/plant all alone on a plain black (or better yet, magenta) background and save as .bmp. "Cutout" as needed. Then use that image as a billboard. You get full control but avoid a scene with many large 3D .3ds objects....the best of both worlds.
Hi Robert,
I hope it works for you, then you know it is computer or user error.... but then again, if you have a corrupt install of TFPlan, that would be an easy fix, just redownload and reinstall :-)
Hi Allan,
I didn't want to post the bld as I made that TCAD 3DS file using a copy of the lower Z frame work to the upper. You will see the upper Z framing extends above the corner posts and is 'open' on top. So the lower portion that was copied also has the horizontal member missing.
FYI.. to make this in TCAD you first draw a circle of X diameter (4"), then select the Extrude tool, click on the circle and 'extrude' it to a length (10').
Make copies and place them in to create the other 3 corners of the 'Truss Support'
In Front View, switch your workplane so it is active and you are drawing in Front View. Select the polyline tool and start drawing your 'Z' frame pattern. Horizontal 90 deg between 2 'supports' to the right, then uppward 45 deg to the left, then horizontal 90 deg to the right ,,,,,,, continue until your to the top (I stopped about mid way , as this was a test of TFPlan rendering not TCAD modeling)
Now you draw a circle to represent the diameter of the 'Z Frame 'bars' (2") and use the Sweep or Rail Sweep tool, click on the 'Circle' then the Z shaped polyline, the line is converted to a solid of a 2" diameter.
These operations are simple, fast and editable. That is where a program like TCAD is much more flexible than TFPlan or Sketchup for creating a 3D model... but everyone has their own likes and dislikes,,, so what ever get's the job done.
Jack
Quote from: Jack Zimmer on July 04, 2012, 08:05:14 AM
Quotegave it a 3D paint Material
What happens when you do an Advanced render of the attached bld?
Thanks Jack,
You have giving me back HOPE that we would find and fix the issue ;D
As you can see the Advance render worked with your bld file,
Q. 1- Did you create this with newer than TCad V12 ?
2- Was the Corner pipes created in TCad using EXTRUDE or did you use 3d Object As Solid/ Thickness (144 in)/ Material Category: 3DS- Material: (Color)?
3- Save As/ File name:/Save as type: 3DS -3D Studio/ Setup/(X) Preserve loaded 3dS materials- ( ) Save Keyframe/ Save (X) Selection?
4- Then Import-Object Wizard...1.Gave it a name- 2.Type of element..Exterior Structures- 3.Select the Object file...Autodesk 3D Studio... Next...Next....Finish. Place on terrain.
5- Export and Reimport?
In the second Attachment (Truss2) you will see my result, it render.
The added 3ds pipe that worked was created using my TCAD V12 using the steps above, imported to your bld opened file and it render in Advance ( NOT SIMPLE EXTRUDE OR TRAIL SWEEP)
(The pipes created using EXTRUDE or RAIL SWEEP did not work on my previous test)
I will open a New TFPLAN V16 and see if importing the 3DS pipe file that worked when imported to your TFPLAN bld file will work on my NEW project !!
Robert
Quote from: Doug.S on July 04, 2012, 10:43:39 AM
Another issue to watch for using "billboard" trees, regardless of the source, is the lighting and the edges.
Often the lighting on the tree photo does not match the sun direction of the TFP scene and it looks wrong. For example photo taken at high noon which makes top of plant/tree bright; but TFP sun set to afternoon/4pm and the plant/trees should be side lit...and direction from left, right, or back (backlit) does not match...subtle but hauntingly wrong!
Also doing the "cutout" one needs to be very careful to avoid background creep; especially at edges or places of transparency. Photoshop has good tools for selecting and removing backgrounds....but look at TFP trees and you may see white edged pixels that were missed in inserting magenta color.
Look carefully at Allan's people by a lake...see the various wrong lighting on billboard objects. I'm not attacking Allan's work as he did this as a very quick example for a different purpose....but some billboards don't match the brightness or sunlight/shadow on them (not the shadow on the ground concern) and they look like photos glued onto the scene.
With carefull selection of photo image billboards they can be convincing...just need to match all the variables to the scene using excellent transparency.
Another alternative: Use a real 3D plant/tree (such as .3ds) in a scene all alone with the same sun/light source you plan to use in final TFP render. Render the tree/plant all alone on a plain black (or better yet, magenta) background and save as .bmp. "Cutout" as needed. Then use that image as a billboard. You get full control but avoid a scene with many large 3D .3ds objects....the best of both worlds.
This is exactly my point and why I despise using Photoboad Unless using it strictly as Background Far Back or to reduce file size. 3D objects will have the SUN LIGHT equal to the rest of the objects in the scene ;)
Using Billboard will have the Shadow correct with the Sun but if the image light is not at the same side and angle as the sun setting that also is not good and very disturbing to the final scene.
The Other issue with Photoboard is Billboard shadow only work correctly in BASIC NOT ADVANCE. as you can see in the samples posted in the Forum!!
Robert
Hi Robert,
I agree with regard to the sun angle on photoboards - that is where the Stationary comes in as you can turn it around so the sun angle is correct (or more correct ). In the Lake image most of the people are from TFP and not photoboards in the sense that they are not reversible so could not, in this case, be rotated to match the sun - just a quick example. Importing people as true photoboards works much better.
As far as photoboard plants are concerned I have added a close up image and distant example. Dispite any shadows that may be slightly wrong (again I have simply dropped them into the view), it would be very difficult to get a 3D plant to look as real.
Good to see you are making progress on the TCad 3DS file.
Allan
Q. 1- Did you create this with newer than TCad V12 ? YES V19
2- Was the Corner pipes created in TCad using EXTRUDE or did you use 3d Object As Solid/ Thickness (144 in)/ Material Category: 3DS- Material: (Color)? EXTRUDE
3- Save As/ File name:/Save as type: 3DS -3D Studio/ Setup/(X) Preserve loaded 3dS materials- ( ) Save Keyframe/ Save (X) Selection? YES BUT NOT KEYFRAME (NEVER DO, WHY ??)
4- Then Import-Object Wizard...1.Gave it a name- 2.Type of element..Exterior Structures- 3.Select the Object file...Autodesk 3D Studio... Next...Next....Finish. Place on terrain. (SOMETIMES I USE 'EQUIPEMENT FOR TYPE ... NOT AS MANY OBJECTS IN THAT CATALOG,,, ALL THE REST WAS THE SAME)
5- Export and Reimport? (NEVER)
SEE MY LAST POST ON PAGE 3
SO IT MAY BE TCAD VERSION THAT IS THE CULPRIT.
JACK
Jack Thanks,
EXTRUDE seems to have the issue issue with my TCAD V12 import to TFPLAN V16. ;)
Allan Thanks,
I don't want to sound PICKI But I"M ;D
I know your sample of the plants was a fast sample but I can't overlook the inconsistency of the Sun Light on the trees , the Flat appearance of the Bushes and Flowers.
If the sun is at 12:00PM on some and Others at different Times It reminds me of a Bad PhotoShop, :-[ Sorry.
I'm not sold on the Photoboard realism, in compare with 3D Plants. Photoboard still looks like a Cutout
Flat Board ::)
I appreciate having that obption when no other choice !!! ;)
Robert
Quote from: Jack Zimmer on July 04, 2012, 08:24:19 AM
Issue with Plants
TFPlan doesn't have good plants, never has.
My simple solution is to take those found in Realtime Landscape Pro and add them as Photo Boards to TFPlan. I use Realtime for other things and borrowing it's plants isn't a difficult exercise.
As far as shadows not looking good in Advanced rendering mode, don't use Advanced, it uses Radiosity which bounces light around. There is nothing in an exterior view to 'bounce' off, so you get odd results. If you use Basic for exteriors your tree shadows should be fine.
Google Warhouse has 3D Trees and with my 3 year old computer, I have no problems rendering them. But I do limit their placement to either the foreground or within view. Any distant view trees are better using photo boards.
Note in the attached that the Realtime scroll bar is in middle on the right and 5 rows of trees are represented.
There are about 60 more rows to top and 60 more rows to the bottom of just trees.
Also note that there are a ton of other plants , flowers , shrubs etc
AND that is just the 2D Plant image part of the program, you have a ton of other options available too, like animation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4vk3BE_QMg&feature=BFa&list=UUIdjN0ItLqjjMc5wGzyrXBQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4vk3BE_QMg&feature=BFa&list=UUIdjN0ItLqjjMc5wGzyrXBQ)
Jack
Thanks
Hi Robert,
I appreciate how you feel about the plants and my feelings are mixed too. Unfortunately it is only virtual reality ,so there are always compromises. I struggled for about 7-8 years with 3D plants (have hundreds of them) until the photoboards came along but sadly both have their problems and it finally gets down to what works best in what situation.
Using more than one or two 3D trees took ages to render and sometimes I had to let it run overnight (only to find I had set something wrong and had to do it all again the next night ::) ), but thankfully a new PC eased the situation a little. The problem was then I was still left with plants that had all just the same even green leaves, often angular and with no texture in them. I tried using textures for the leaves (grass etc) and that improved distant ones, but close up ones with broad leaves, looked as though a law mower had gone past. ;D However the shadows were always good and no worries about the time of day etc.
Photo plants render quick, have the detail in the leaf and flower but are just 2D and no matter what you do you cannot change the shadows within the plant itself, unless you have photos for every different time of the day and year - what a nightmare that would be!! ;D
So it is a question of: what you want to achieve, if the PC is up to it, how close you have the plants to the camera and the time of day too I guess. Since the main function of TFP is building modelling, I try to concentrate on that and use whatever plants are appropriate for the circumstance, to dress it up.
Allan
:) Allan You made me Laugh ;D
I hear you, and all you said is the Reality.
I can Live with Basic for Outside Landscaping design when using TFPlan 8)
I use "Realtime landscaping" for Exterior Animation and "PoolStudio" until I can invest in more expensive XFROG and Other Software! ;)
Of cource than I will have to invest in Better PC System and Processor etc,$$$$$$ ::)
I'm working on the Main Store Interior design for Serena Lakes Plaza Project with more Knowledge using TFPLAN and TCAD because of the circumstances and The Great Help from You and others in this Forum ;)
Thanks
Robert
Hi Robert,
Will look forward to seeing some interior views when you are happy with them (or if you are unhappy and need help!! ;) )
It is a totally different ballgame working with interior lighting and Advanced render. Turn daylight off for starters!
Because the process is so different, best to raise any questions in a separate post. :)
Allan
Since this idea above may have gotten lost above; here it is again:
"Another alternative: Use a real 3D plant/tree (such as .3ds) in a scene all alone with the same sun/light source you plan to use in final TFP render. Render the tree/plant all alone on a plain black (or better yet, magenta) background and save as .bmp. "Cutout" as needed. Then use that image as a billboard. You get full control but avoid a scene with many large 3D .3ds objects....the best of both worlds."
8) Great suggestion Doug, awesome ;)
Robert
Hi Doug and Robert,
The idea sounds fine and I have not tried it but wouldn't you still end up with the same disconnected shadow in Advanced render? The 3D object would have become 2D and although the plant would have the sun on it in the right place you would still have the potentially narrow and disconnected shadow wouldn't you?
I must try it out
Allan
I have not tried either, but I suspect the ground shadow would still be incorrect as it is now...but that is easily "repaired" in post/Photoshop.
In fact, from a real render of the 3D tree/plant, one could render to include the shadow (another render in addition to render to magenta background) and use that shadow (probably cut out) as a layer in Photoshop to place it just where needed with no guessing except to correct for other object's shadows in same shadow area (if any).
Hi Robert and Doug,
I did try the idea but while it may help in getting the angle of the sun on the tree correct and save memory, it is going create a lot of post processing to get the shadows right. In Basic the shadow is just a slit, if the sun is from that angle, while in Advanced the shadow is better (but no where near as good as the 3D one) and is separated slightly too. Making things worse however is that now, being a photoboard, the image itself deteriorates in Advanced render, so it loses any advantages the 3D tree had.
To make the shadow itself also a part of the photoboard may be Ok just on lawn, but since the model in this case is a shopping centre, the shadows are going to be over all sorts of things, so that would make for a lot of work too and given the image has deteriorated anyway, would not appear to solve the problem.
Looks like you may be best sticking with some good quality 3D trees in the foreground and photoboards further back where lighting and shadow issues can be obscured.
Allan