A client needed a toilet attached to an office with wheelchair access...clearance around the toilet, hand rails, no obstructions under the sink/basin, and a double-wide, concertina door. I originally had the mirror lower for her, but she insisted on having it higher for others to use. What do you think?
Gaz
Hi Garry,
The image looks great - very smart in fact and really nice lighting.
Were you also enquiring about the 'legalities' of the proposal? If you are then read on - otherwise ignore the following:
I deal with this type of installation in public buildings and I can see a number of things that would not qualify in WA and the Australian Standards we use apply Australia wide as far as I know. The rails would appear to me to prevent a wheelchair 'parking' alongside the toilet. The standards say that the centreline of the toilet should be 450-460mm from a corner with the handrail attached to each wall at right angles to each other. The other side has to be unobstructed, so the user has easy access for a wheelchair alongside the toilet. I have attached the relevant page from the Standards as it is a bit hard to describe the handrails in writing.
It is hard to tell from your image, but it also looks a bit narrow. The minimum size is 2400 x 2700 I think you will find.
The Handbasin must have the top 800mm from the floor and the mirror must start no higher than 900mm above the floor. A vanity shelf must be alongside the handbasin or the basin must be in a vanity top.
The door width must be a minimum of 920 and must have a 540 wide clear space on the door knob side, so that a wheelchair can be pulled up along side it and the user be able to reach the knob. It must have a 100mm minimum on the other side (if the door is in a corner) so that the door can open without the door knob hitting the wall and hence prevent the door opening a full 90 degrees. I would also enquire with local authorities about the concertina door, as I don't think that a person in a wheelchair could negotiate these. I think the door would run into the chair, as they tried to open it and they would have to manouver the chair somewhat to open both and then close them again. It would normally require both to be open, unless it is 1840mm wide and they can get through by just opening one side but then other two doors would presumably have to be fixed so that it could be locked wouldn't it?
These are the compliance issues I see when a public building is involved - whether an Access toilet attached to an office would incur the same restrictions I don't know - maybe not. These rules tighten each year and new rules began July 1 so you may want to make some enquiries first, to make sure what you are up against.
Not sure that you would have been expecting this type of answer, but if you are involved in the design or building, then I thought I would raise them so you don't have to redo your work.
Allan
Excellent Allan,
While I was aware of some of the codes involved I hadn't re-read them in a long time and I haven't worked on a wheelchair access toilet before. I really HATE reading the Australian standards and usually leave it till the last minute and then I have to make dramatic changes - I especially hate stairs!!!!! Your info will certainly help me correct these errors before I submit the design, and save me some last minute changes...thanks. I'll post the updated version as soon as it's done.
Gaz
Okay...placed the toilet 450 from the wall, added a 600 x 800 x 50 L-shaped rail to the adjacent wall and a 300 rail to the rear wall. Added a vanity and adjusted the height of the toilet rollholder, mirror and light switches/powerpoint...can't do anything about the size of the room - it's an existing building - Chanded the doors from concertina to sliding pocket at 1920 wide. Is it looking better to your trained eye Allan? Stilldon't want to read the code...but I know I have to...it's a bit likea guy asking for directions or reading the instruction manual on a DVD player!
One strange thing...the ceiing is rendering black...I turned the sunlight off...I tried different materials and paint...tried focussing lights on it...but it still renders black...any ideas? (I changed the first example to white using Photoshop)
Gaz
Hi Garry,
Getting closer - toilet looks OK now.
You will notice I mentioned before a Shelf or Vanity TOP. A cupboard would not be allowed underneath it as it would prevent the user getting close enough, as there is no where for the wheelchair and their knees to go. If a Vanity Top is used it must be wide enough on the sides to accomodate a hanbag etc. If a shelf is used instead, it must be at 900 from the floor (Vanity 800) and must be 300-400mm by 120-150mm.
It is hard to tell from your image but the mirror must also extend up to not less than 1850mm, as it has to also allow for people standing using walking frames. Yours may be OK - bottom no higher than 900, top no lower than 1850. It is because of accomodating walking frames too that a loose floor covering is not allowed.
Still not sure about the door. I gather you already have a wide opening. A pocket door is OK but must be a minimum of 850 access width. Similarly, if there is a passage outside it must be no less than 900mm wide as a wheelchair needs turning space to negotiate the door.
Room size may be an issue - the minimum for an Access Toilet is 1900 x 2700 (2400x2700 if a shower is involved also). If the existing room is less but was previously an Access Toilet anyway (just being redocorated), then that can be allowed but if it is being converted, from a storeroom for example, then the authorities will usually require the structural changes to make it comply with the new rules.
My suggestion is, next time you are having difficulty getting to sleep, take out AS 1428 and have a read - rivetting stuff! Works better than any sleeping tablet! ;)
Re the black ceiling:
What quality level was used? If you have not already done so, set it at 5, as this has always fixed it for me. The light on the ceiling is largely just bounced light from the walls etc and render time (quality) is required for this. I have heard of other things cause this too - no roof (don't know why) too many reflective surfaces and the camera too close to a wall or the back of it inside a wall. Again I can't explain why these have been reported as causes of the problem. Another thing to check - are you using a Colour (White) for the texture or a Paint colour? If you are, try using a white Paint as this is a texture. I have seen some odd effect using Colour instead of texture and will not use them personally - I always choose a Paint. If the colour I want is not there, then I use a photoeditor and create an image of the colour I want and save it to the Textures folder as a BMP file. If all else fails you can apply a low Emissive factor to the ceiling texture maybe just 1 or 2%. Interestingly the lastest version of Envisioneer has a new feature called Ambient lighting. It gives some general internal light without 'lights' as such so it also illuminates the ceiling. TFP V17 should inherit this option hopefully.
Allan
Thanks Allan,
I wondered why you suggested a vanity (top) as I thought that a vanity (unit) would restrict their access, now I see you mean ONLY a top - and no cupboard! I'll get rid of the rug, the door is 1920 wide, there is no shower, and the room is presently a storage room behind the office but on rare occasions a client needing wheelchair access and toilet facilities comes into the office...thus the remodelling. I think the mirror is within spec.
I had no roof on the building as it was only a single room showing the idea of the suggested layout, not the whole house, but even with a roof (and I always use level 5 rendering), and having experimented with a range of finishes, including paint, I'm still getting the black ceiling...annoying.
As for AS 1428, at the moment I'm needing to digest AS 1684.2 to do renovations to an existing conventional roof frame...now THAT one is heavy going! :o
Will make the new updates, and thanks again for your expertise.
Hi Garry,
A few more things to try on the ceiling (separately not all at once).
Right click and Replace with a different ceiling.
Right click the lights and replace with a different light.
Edit the lights and lower the bulb from the fittings so it is say 500 -1000mm below the fittings.
Change the Tiles to none reflective - if that fixes it then increase the reflective factor in stages.
Move the camera (or place a new one), especially if it is close to a wall.
Try any other way-out things you can think of!
Allan
A new longer, wider vanity top, minus the cupboards, extended the height of the mirror a little, lost the floor rug, changed the ceiling to a timber member and painted it white...still black...can't afford to spend any more time on this project now, have more pressing things to work on so I used Photoshop again to do a quick fix of the black ceiling.
Gaz
Hi Garry,
Looks about right now.
Do you mind if I have a look at the ceiling. Black ceilings happen from time to time and I would like to find a cause. You can email it if you do not want to post it on the forum. (alches AT iinet.net.au)
Allan
Quote from: Allan Chesney on September 09, 2012, 07:04:44 AM
Do you mind if I have a look at the ceiling. Black ceilings happen from time to time and I would like to find a cause. You can email it...
Sent
Hi Garry, great bathroom. Just a couple of things to consider.
AS 1428.1 2010 "Design for Access and Mobility" now require clear door widths of 850mm and the tap tops must be leaver type and not as you have shown to comply with the Australian Standard.
Regards Bob
Quote from: Burgo on September 09, 2012, 04:43:42 PM
Just a couple of things to consider.
AS 1428.1 2010 "Design for Access and Mobility" now require clear door widths of 850mm and the tap tops must be leaver type and not as you have shown to comply with the Australian Standard.
Thanks Bob, I really should go and read up on this section of the code shouldn't I...it would save me so much time in the long run!
Hi Garry and Bob,
Quote from: Burgo on September 09, 2012, 04:43:42 PM
tap tops must be leaver type
I should have registered that too - was more concerned about them being within reach!
Re the actual model.
At first I was concerned about the size - 2.5MB for what appeared to be a simple bathroom seemed very large and I suspected there may be imported items that were inflating the file size. The other concern of course was the black ceiling.
As you can see below I have rendered your model and the ceiling is OK. This was caused by the fact that the 'office' end of the building had no wall. Close the end with a wall (or room divide if you want to see through it) and it renders fine, as it is now an "interior" surface and interior lights will 'work' on it. The exhaust fan rendered correctly also. Adding the wall was the only thing I changed to get the ceiling to render correctly.
I noticed that the render time was 7.5 minutes which seemed very long. Maybe that is the file size issue I thought, so I replaced the imported items with TFP ones and the render time came down from 7.5 to just 1.5 minutes. The actual file size went down from 2.5MB to 1MB and polygon count from 74,000 to 7,500. The latter explains the render time difference.
There is nothing wrong with the imported objects at all and the imported vanity certainly looks smoother thant the TFP one but they do have an effect on render times. I just made the changes below to see if inbuilt objects would do the job and see the effect on file size and render times. I left the angled handrail, since there isn't one in TFP, but the other things I changed as part of this experiment, that appeared to be imported, were the following:
- Office chairs - deleted as not in the view.
- Vanity top - replaced with standard TFP one.
- Toilet roll holder - replaced with standard TFP one.
- Straight handrail - replaced with standard TFP one.
- Vent on wall - replaced with TFP picture frame with Siding as vents.
- Exhanust Fan - replaced with TFP 'box'.
I also made the following changes to avoid unnecessary objects:
- Edging used against wall for tile dado - deleted and changed the wall property to use the Trim/Custom/Wainscot (dado).
- Members attached to the wall for decorative tile band - deleted and changed the wall property to use the Trim/Chair Rail.
The image below is the one with these adjustments. As mentioned before, the ceiling (and Exhaust fan) rendered properly after I inserted a wall and looked the same as in this image.
Allan
That's amazing Allan...you're the man! I'll make the same changes this end and see if I can get similar results, thank you.
Gaz
Great to see people actually doing this. As a wheelchair user and an architect, and Barrier Free Auditor, the Code is of a minimal level only. Each person in a wheelchair has different needs and abilities. My first thought is that this client must have Front Access to the pan... ( as there are hand rails each side).
Try and put yourself in their position and ask this question, "if someone has very limited leg ability how do they transfer to the pan, (left side, right side or front ) What is the process for taking their pants down? and how do they pull them up??" where is the hand rail for this situated. Also when cleaning themselves what if they soil their hands in the process and cannot reach the hand basin? They would then contaminate the chair when wheeling to the basin.
With relation to the mirror... there is a mirror in a disabled toilet at the Sydney Opera House, which correctly is made on a sloping angle...BUT it is installed upside down and thus the slope looks up at the ceiling......totally useless...
But great job..
Adrian
Thank you Adrian for your thoughful response, it certainly is difficult designing for another person when you haven't experienced the difficulties and frustrations from their perspective.
The submission/presentation for this project is this week...wish me luck!
Gaz
Good luck Gaz, Go for it..
Just put yourself in their "shoes" wheelchair", their Reality is your Perception. If I can help don't hesitate to ask as I will even help an Ozzy...Me being a Kiwi
Something you may like to read before your presentation: http://www.disabledarchitecture.com/category/design-and-architecture/bathroom-design
Cheers
Adrian
Just looked again... For the facets,, taps.... find a model with only one "Tap" and place to the side of the basin. Remembering arm dexterity, and eliminating the possibility of scolding from Hot Water
These comments may have been said before, but as a "Newbie" I am still finding my way around this great forum
Adrian
Adrian,
Thanks so much for the link to the disabled architecture website, it's a goldmine of information and again, it had so many ideas that I hadn't considered like the level access to the shower - of course it makes perfect sense now once you've read it, but I'm so used to doing set downs in wet areas that it never even crossed my mind!
Gaz
Gaz you are welcome, remembering that architecture is only limited by ones imagination ......lol
Thanks guys for all your suggestions, comments, advice and support...the project was accepted by the client without the need for any alterations!
Happy Gaz! ;D
;) 8) Great Gaz
Hi Garry,
Good to hear it all went well.
Maybe we will see an 'as built' eventually for comparison! ;D
Allan
Quote from: Allan Chesney on December 25, 2012, 07:49:46 PM
Good to hear it all went well.
Maybe we will see an 'as built' eventually for comparison! ;D
If I get a chance to get some photos of the finished building I'll post them up here for you to compare...happy holidays everyone!
Gaz