Hello,
I'm new to TurboFLOORPLAN and using version 16. I'm slowly getting the hang of things while trying to create a two storey building, but am having problems with stairs. I'm trying to create a new type from one of the simple predefined straight stairs. I want to change the width, number of steps, riser height and tread run as a minimum. I've changed the width OK. I tried to change (reduce) the number of steps, but couldn't - TFP defaulted back to the standard 18. Twigged that the 'Riser Maximum' that was set was being exceeded , so I increased that and that allowed me to change the number of steps. Question: what should 'Riser Maximum' be set to? - just some abitrary size greater than the overall height divided by the desired number of steps? I don't see the point of the setting... Then went on to adjust the tread run. TFP allowed me to reduce it a little but not as much as I wanted - I have a fairly steep set of steps. (I can increase it as much as I want.) I can't figure out what is constraining the minimum tread run - can anyone help? I tried making the same edit to a couple of other predefined straight stair types, but with the same results.
BTW, the stairs run between two walls - is there a way to make them 'fit', or is it as crude as just setting the stair width to the distance between the walls? Also I don't really understand the 'Front', 'Bottom' and 'Under' Landing options...
Thanks for any help you may be able to provide.
Colin.
Hi Colin,
Welcome to the Forum!
The stairs can only be a combination of the total height (floor to next floor), Raiser Height and Tread Run. If you leave the number of steps fixed then one or other of the other options has to change. Obviously the Total Height has to be fixed fixed. The Maximum Raiser may also be fixed by building bylaws so that is why there is a maximum. If you can't get the Tread Run small enough then you have to increase the Tread Height or number of steps to compensate otherwise the steps will go above the next floor - but that is fixed (so that plus the number of steps is what is limiting the Tread Run). It is just a mathamatical figure governed by the other fixed dimensions.
The width of the stairs nees to be entered, exactly as you would make real stairs to fit an opening. If you want a tight fit, which obviously you do, then measure the wall distance and change the stairs accordingly, then move one wall a little to the side, drag the stairs into place and then drag the wall back again. If necessary turn off Collision while you do it.
Allan
Dear Allan,
Many thanks for your kind welcome, quick reply and for explaining the purpose of the 'Riser Maximum' dimension. Also for the tip on making the stairs fit snugly between the walls. I don't however fully follow your reasoning for the other stair dimensions - I think perhaps you are not considering the angle of the stairs in your explanation.
Obviously there must be an overall height - the vertical distance between the two floors that the stairs connect. Let's imagine for example stairs having say 15 steps connecting the ground floor and the floor above that - let's call that the landing (sorry if that's just UK terminology). Now considering the steps - the top or tread of the first step is one riser height above ground floor level, the tread of the second step is two riser heights above ground floor level and so on until the 15th step (the surface of the landing itself) which is 15 x riser height above ground floor level. The riser height must therefore be the overall height divided by 15. (If that works out to be larger than the specified 'Riser maximum', TFP forces you to increase the number of steps and so reduce the riser height until the maximum is no longer exceeded.) Now for the tread run (or 'going' as it is called in the UK). For our example stairs there will be 14 tread runs as the 15th step (the landing itself) doesn't have a tread run per se. The angle or pitch (the steepness) of the stairs will determine the length of the tread run - the steeper the stairs the shorter the tread run. As there appears to be no way to specify the angle of the stairs in TFP, I assume that TFP determines the angle of the stairs from the tread run, rather than the tread run from the angle. Therefore I still can't see why any desired tread run can't be chosen unless 'behind the scenes' TFP is imposing some kind of maximum angle which is not stated and which it is not possible to specify (in the same way as the 'Riser maximum'). (Taking this to an extreme, a very small tread run could be chosen resulting in stairs which were rather like a ladder.)
Looking at the stairs 'side on' they form a simple right angle triangle, with the sum of the tread runs as the base, the sum of the riser heights as the overall height and the stairs themselves as the hypotenuse. The angle between the base and the hypotenuse determines the steepness of the stairs. As you say the number of steps govern the riser height and tread run - but only for a given overall height and angle.
I wondered also if perhaps the 'Front', 'Bottom' and 'Under' Landing options that I don't understand refer to what is considered to be the top of the final step. For example, perhaps 'under' means that the top of the last step is one riser height below landing level? If that were the case then in my example above there would be 15 tread runs, and 16 riser heights making up the overall height.
Am I misunderstanding something in your explanation?
Thanks,
Colin.
Hi Colin,
I have been using TFP and its predecessors for about 20 years and I can't recall actually using the stairs as such (certainly nothing unusual anyway) as most houses in Australia are single storey - so my experience with stairs is very linited - mainly just playing with them!!
The point you made about the angle/height/Tread Run is correct and it would appear that the Tread Run is actually limited to 230mm as I cannot set it lower than that. As you said there does not appear to be an angle setting anywhere. I will try to confirm this minimum setting or find out what is affecting it. May take a day or two.
The 'Front', 'Bottom' and 'Under' Landing options just relate to how the top step connects to the Landing (used here too), either in front of it as a step surface (making the Landing wider in effect) or making the landing itself the step. "Under' only appears to add framing beneath the landing. If you rotate the stair example in Properties and change these settings, you will see how the connection to the landing changes.
Allan
Hi Allan,
Many thanks, I really appreciate your help. There seems to be a similar restriction on other stair types, but it's not so easy to check because of their other complexities...
Colin.
Hi Colin,
Looks like there is a bug here maybe in the Stair defaults but there is a workaround.
If you already have stairs inserted, go to the Basic tab and change the Type to Ramp and then change it back to what you had before. You will find that you can now set the Tread Run down to at least 100mm (maybe less - I didn't test further). Somehow it seems that changing to Ramp and back again, 'unlocks' this restriction! You will have to add your landing and upper stairs again of course but at least the restriction is cleared.
If you are likely to use a simlair stair again, you may want the save the modified one back to the Catalogue and it will then still be editable for future use without having to do the Ramp conversion each time.
Allan
Hi allan,
Thanks again for taking the time to investigate this - however did you discover that workaround? I gave it a try and it works fine, even with tread runs less than 100mm.
Best regards,
Colin.
Hi Colin,
How did I find the workaround? I cheated - I asked the question on the Envisioneer forum! ;) I had a vague recollection it has been discussed there before but could not remember the solution.
I subsequently found by random checking that the first one in the FoldBack group was editable below 230mm and so were the Porch Stairs. Maybe some others are too as I did not try them all.
Allan