We're trying to see what the house would look like with our existing brick and various siding color options. The brick seems to be pretty close. However, when I select a wall, right click, select properties, then appearance, the color of the siding in the selection window for the siding that we've selected does not match the rendered color in 3D view. This is also true if I define a new solid color. I've tried changing all the settings in the Program Settings, Rendering window and nothing seems to make any difference. Not only to color, no changes that I can see at all.
Any suggestions?
Hi Dave,
There are a few different issues here.
First, I notice on your image that the Siding colour on the model is not the same Siding as in the selection window so thy do look different - the one in the selection window has double lines, so it is not the same one as on the wall itself. The selected Texture has not been applied to the wall yet.
Secondly, the 3D view colours are never true as they change on different walls to try to give the appearance of shadows - you will not get true colours (or proper shadows) until you actually render an image. Have you actually done that yet? I assume you haven't because you say that the Render settings do not change anything at all. Some of these settings will change things dramatically, but you will only see the changes when you render an image using View /3D Real View. The resulting image should be pretty close to the Siding colour you chose but will be affected by shadows of course and if you chose Daylight, Full or Partial Sun or Overcast. The colours will also change a little depending on the time of day you have chosen (colours will be warmer evening and morning) and they may also vary slightly depending what city you have chosen in Settings / Global.
It is best not to use Solid Colours. These do not always render well. If you use the Paint colours (eg Heritage Colours) they are actually using a BMP image of the actual paint colour not just a simulation of a colour using the computer's colour chart.
I hope some of those comments help.
Allan
The siding in the selection window is the siding that is applied to the exterior of the wall shown. I'm guessing it looks like it has double lines because it is being shown smaller and the program isn't reducing it very well.
You are correct, I was using the 3D camera view, not Real View. Even with a fast PC and graphics card Real View is too slow to compare appearance of different siding colors. I assumed that the 3D image was rendered using the same options. Even with Real View, the colors are not better. See the attached png file. The top image is the Real View, the bottom the 3D camera view.
I'm using the Certainteed bim file as provided by Certainteed, no solid colors unless they specified it.
I have tried using custom colors using the Windows color palette, those colors do not come out the same either.
Hi Dave,
I think this is probably as close as you will get with "virtual reality". I don't have the Siding you are using but in the comparison image I did with one of the original Sidings, the colour in the small sample, is pretty close to the 3D view colour on the right hand side wall. This is the side shown as "in the sun" as against the left side "in the shade". This 'forced shading' is just done to give a slight 3D effect. Obviously the 'shaded side' is darker. See the first image
Real View rendering will be different, as mentioned before, depending on some of the settings, time of day, season etc. For image 2 I used Basic rendering and, when compared with the 3D view below, it is pretty close really. I don't think you can expect to get it any closer. Basic rendering is intended for outside rendering, as in this case. It took only 2 seconds to render.
The colour is different, lighter obviously, using Advanced rendering (image 3), which is intended for inside use, where it will reflect light bounced off walls and ceilings. It will attempt to accurately represent sunlight coming in through doors and windows also and bounce the light from the floor etc.. If used for exterior views it will sometimes reflect other colours, so the green of the grass may give a greenish tinge to the walls. This image took 21 seconds.
It is difficult to get 'virtual' colours correct, so it can only ever be a rough guide. Colours vary between computer screens and different printers and papers so who can say what really is the right colour, except seeing the real thing. Even that is questionable too, for example - a story from a painter friend: He obtained a paint colour chosen by a client and painted a test panel on one wall in her home. She was adamant that he had got the wrong colour so he went away and came back with the SAME TIN of paint and painted a panel in the same room but on a different wall. She commended him for getting the colour correct the second time!
Allan
Alan, I hope Imsi takes really good care of you. You are a wealth of knowledge and always ready to jump in and share it.
While I don't expect the program to be perfect, I would hope it would be a lot closer than it is. My colors don't come close to the color I've picked no matter what I do. If you select a material to see what it looks like in your design and it is not represented remotely close to the color the same program has you pick, what's the point?
I do understand a bit about color and it's perception. Everything in the field of view and the lighting that may not be in the field of view affects how each color is perceived. I used to be the AV business and enjoy photography and an technical by nature. So it should be no surprise that my monitor is calibrated. Even if it weren't, the colors on the same monitor are different. For what it's worth the computer is fast with a high performance graphics card. When I click on a 3D camera to open the 3D view it pops up immediately with no noticeable delay. It just isn't correct.
Hi Dave,
Quote from: Dave R on July 02, 2013, 01:46:32 PM
Alan, I hope Imsi takes really good care of you.
Depends what you mean by "take care of". I am just a user like everyone else, although I have Admin access to the forum, to help out some of the users when joining the forum. They are good to me though when it comes to any of the software that they produce.
Quote from: Dave R on July 02, 2013, 01:46:32 PM
My colors don't come close to the color I've picked no matter what I do.
Do you have this problem with the Generic Siding? or is it just the imported ones? You said before that the brick looked right. I do not have the Siding you are using, so can't compare. I have been using the program almost daily since version 3 and I can't say the differences have been great enough to concern me at all.
Seems we have lots in common - I used to be in AV business, enjoy photography (take dozens of photos every day) and I am technical my nature too (not with the insides of computers though!). I am also an artist and do graphic design. I did play around with monitor calibration one time too, to satisfy my boss that the website I was designing for the company was using the corporate colours but gave up on that one. As I said, what is the point of trying to get the hundreds of screens in the office to look identical, as we could not do anything about the ones in peoples homes who are actually using the site. They are all going to see it differently anyway and probably many of the me are colour-blind anyway.
You commented earlier that "Even with a fast PC and graphics card Real View is too slow to compare appearance of different siding colors." It should not take long. My Real View render test using Basic was only 2 seconds (if that). Basic is much quicker as it only renders what is in the camera view, while Advanced renders the whole building first before giving you just the camera's specific angle. In my experience, the colours in Exterior views, using Basic render, are not perfect but are pretty close to the 3D View and texture sample.
Have you still got a copy of the Certainteed BIM that you are using? If you have, could you post it so I can test them out too? (or just create a BIM with a few samples in it).
Allan
I have comments/questions in an attempt to help......
- Just what does not look correctly colored? Can you post an example (similar to Allan's example) of what you are selecting and how it shows both on screen and as rendered...or side by side what looks wrong
- Just how "different" is it from what you expected? and in what way? (luminance, hue, saturation etc.). Did you measure the color (R,G,B) using a sampler such as "color cop" or similar?...of the original texture being applied, compared to its on screen display as siding, and to a rendered result? How different are the R,G,B results?
- Are you using any lights/lighting in which the color of the light source changes the viewed colors?
- Is it one item, or is every color "off", or just one type such as siding? Have you had a success anywhere?
- Have you considered using Photoshop or similar to fine tune a rendered image if color comparisons are critical? Or perhaps you want a wider variation/difference like green vs. blue rather than cream vs. off-white? Just trying to ascertain how critically close in color you want to match. I assume it is all on screen, not printed?
- Have you run any simple tests of paint colors of source.bmp vs. rendered output?
- Are you using different viewers? or are all comparisons done all within TFP one same PC and same screen? (That is what I think you are doing...all in TFP...which should eliminate h/w and s/w variables)
- Do Allan's samples look all correct to you and are yours the same or different if you duplicated his examples on your system?
I'll try to answer both Alan's and Doug's questions.
The siding I'm using is imported Certainteed Stain Finished Cedar Lap and Certainteed ColorMax Prefinished. I got the bim file from the "Download More" link in the upper right hand corner of the catalog panel in TFP. If you can not get the bim file from that link let me know and I'll send it to you.
If you look at the picture in my first post it shows the color I expect in the selection box and the color that I get with a 3D camera. I did not measure anything as far as luminance, actual color, etc. We want the color in the selection window which is pretty close to the sample we have.
This is outdoors, the only light is the sun and I don't seem to have any control over it.
So far, the only colors I've messed with are the siding and shingle colors, they have all been off.
I have played with the jpg file for the two colors we're interested in and have gotten them much closer, but it's by trial and error and is a pain.
Everything is on the same computer, same monitor, using TFP 3D camera views.
I just tried basic render and it took over 35 seconds. This is on an I7-3770K quad core with hyper-threading running 4.3 GHz, Windows 7 x64, 32 Gig RAM, Nvidia GeForce GTX660. Perhaps there is something wrong with my installation.
Hi Dave,
Try this. Use a new project, draw a 4 wall box and put one of the TFP standard sidings on it.. Position the Camera to look just at a closeup view of the corner (similar to mine so you see both Sides) and do a basic render. With your setup it should do it instantly as your PC is way faster than mine (i7, 1.6Ghz x2, 4GB RAM!). Let us know the time it took if not instant.
Now change the sun position in Global Settings so you have the sun on one wall and shade on the other. Make sure the time of day is suitable for decent daylight (not too early morning or late afternoon) and make sure the 'use current time' box is unticked (otherwise if you are doing it at night, everything will be black obviously!). If you are a long way from the equator, choose a city that is closer and a summer month on the calendar. On the Render Settings, make sure Use Daylight is ticked and Full Sun (not Partial or Overcast). When you are happy with the sun / shadow position etc, render in Basic, take a screen shot similar to mine, (that shows the rendered corner and 3D View corner) and post it here.
In the meantime I will.download the Siding you are using and do the same. That won't be till somewhat later as it is the early hours of the morning here. I am just interested to see if using a 'blank' project affects the speed of the render, if the Siding itself is an issue or if the sun position, time of day, latitude etc is affecting the colour.
It will be interesting to are what happens.
Allan
Dave,
What was image size you were rendering that took so long? Try 800x600 or 1024x768, should be much faster if you were rendering a much larger image.
Unfortunately TFP basic renders uses only one core...not optimized for multi core. But if you do an advanced render, the follow-on basic/raytrace render uses all cores OK....and you only need to do adv. render once, then select other camera and run raytrace again; so it can be faster overall for many adv. renders.
Possibility that the .bim you got has an error that interferes with proper render; tho usually if a render fails it fails rather than produce near good results slowly...so .bim may be OK. We'll see what your simple bldg render results are and what Allan renders with your .bim does.
I'd not suspect a bad install nor a PC problem at this point. You could try a render with H/W acceleration turned off to see if video card is causing a color render problem. Is vid card s/w driver up to latest rev?
TFP does have a file *repair* action but usually finds floor or ceiling problems....but worth a try.
Hi Dave,
I have repeated the tests using the Certain Teed Heritage Classic 5", which I think is the one you used in the first post, and I cannot really see much difference between the texture sample and the sunny side of the building. Yes it is different to the "shady" side but you would expect that to be darker. Your original image appears to be compared with the shaded side of the building
The second image is the Basic Render on top with the 3D view behind. This was rendered as 10am and again any difference is negligible really. Try replicating my view on a basic 4 wall building and see how it compares.
Allan
It's been a while since I've had time to work with TFP. When I went back in and looked around I noticed that one inside corner of the exterior appeared to be brightly lit. There are no artificial light sources in the plan. So I went in and drew the site boundaries, calculated the angle of the house to North and placed it in the site at the correct angle. Now the front of the house is well lit and the colors are much better. It faces West and it's late afternoon.
The problem is that the house is now at an angle in the plan. How do I rotate the view without changing where North is? Is there a setting that allows you to rotate the display relative to North?
Hi Dave,
The top of the screen defaults to north As far as the sunlight is concerned in the 3D model. With the building at an angle you will find it almost impossible to insert things straight (which is probably what you have already found, hence the question. In plan printing the building always shown parallel to the edge top edge of the paper and a north point is shown on the plan for orientation purposes.TFP is the same
Normally you would draw the plan parallel to the top of the screen and you adjust the North point in Settings / Program Settings / Global for rendering. This will give you the correct lighting - the 3D model is just a guide.
Allan
Got it. I rotated everything back to square and set the North setting and all is well. Thanks!