>:(
I'm hoping someone from IMSI can explain to me why I've just shelled out good money to test the alpha quality build of TFP V14 I've just bought and installed?
I've had V14 running for about 30 minutes and it's already locked up (100% processor usage) a dozen times. Nearly everything that I touch causes a failure. The most reproducable failure is with the new room measuring tool, if I attempt to edit the name before I've selected a room it always locks up. Even after it's put into the room though it locks up if I try to make any modifications to the stupidly large text etc etc.
To really rub salt into the wound though this pile of the proverbial won't even start up without locking up. The only way to start it is to double click an existing TFP file! I'm currently downloading build 637 in the hope that it will fix at least some of the problems in shipping 624.
Actually, while I'm into rubbing salt into the wounds I read that the rendering issues haven't been sorted out in V14 - that was one of my primary reasons for upgrading as I've only ever managed to get a couple of rendering out of V12. I suspect I will be demanding a refund for this rubbish in the not to distant future, that should be fun.
Hi. Welcome to the Forum.
I am not from IMSI but may be able to throw some light on the situation.
The Cause:
Imagine that you buy a little Hyundai Getz (I suppose it has that name where you are) but find it accidentally was delivered with a Formula 1, Farrari engine! How do you think it would go? Since the Hyundai is not made to cope with a Farrari engine you would probably crash on even very slight turns. Unfortunately that is what happened with the initial release of V14 - it was accidentally delivered to IMSI with a default template, or something like that, from Envisioneer 5 (its parent program, worth around $2,000) and some PCs could not handle it.
On my laptop it crashed on small hills and very slight curves in the road but on my deskptop only the tightest hairpin bend caused a crash on just a couple of occasions. I was nice to try out the Farrari but not in the Hyundai body. Each is fine for its own purpose.
The solution:
The update to 637 that you said you were doing, should fix it, and, as IMSI Design point out on their website, it fixes problems editing a V12 file and removes the functionality that should not have been there (the Farrari engine!). It should now be a normally functioning Hyundai. In some circumstances, such as going up a steep hill, like any car, it does not like 'overdrive', so you may need to turn Hareware Acelleration off for some processes.
Text Size:
Anywhere in the program, text size, dimensions and dimension lines etc are all totally editable - in most cases you just double click the object. EDIT: Seems there may be a bug in the Room 'Settings' tab. Causes a freeze if you try to change the text on this one. Evisioneer 5 has the same problem!
Rendering:
Yes it is dissappointing that some of the rendering issues have not been fixed yet, but they haven't on the Farrari yet either, so it is obviously not a simple issue. Excellent rendering is still possible however, as the image below and posts in the forum Gallery and eleswhere in the forum testify. If you are having specific issues then just ask about them, as I have been able to address all the ones ones I have found so far.
Paying for alpha testing:
Whether you are paying for alpha testing is questionable. At around $99US (or $49 for an upgrade), I don't think you can expect a Farrari, and you haven't got one, but you have a very good Hyundai. My personal opinion is that this program is probably underpriced for what it is capable of doing and for the limited market to which it caters. It is tremendously complex underneath, yet cheaper to buy than the mass market Microsoft Word that just processes words (and other fiddly bits that few people use). If TFP was to receive the money and testing the Microsoft put into their products (and STILL have bugs and crashes) then you would really have a Farrari. I guess a few bugs are to be expected or else we would all have to pay a whole lot more!
Hope you enjoy your new Hyundai now that it has the right engine!!
Allan
I understand what you are saying, I own and run a software development company so I know a lot about bugs. I will live with a few minor bugs (especially if they have a work around) but to ship a product that crashes left right and centre is not really acceptable. I would be ashamed to ship something this bad. Having said that installing build 637 did improve matters.
To use your car analogy: you go to the garage and shell out your hard earned money on a new car, you get a good deal but you still had to pay for it. You drive it 100 metres down the road and it breaks down. Would you sit there and say to yourself "hey I got a good deal so I'll live with it" or would you take it back and ask for it to be fixed or to be given a refund? Just because it's software it doesn't excuse it not working correctly.
As for rendering, the original 624 build couldn't even get as far a opening the rendering dialog before crashing. Build 637 on the other hand produces some nice renders (something I could never get working on my laptop).
Considering how much I paid for it I'm happy to submit bug reports and, I hope, any reports I submit would be useful. What I would ask in return though is that a proper public bug tracker is set up (Bugzilla for example) and we get real feedback and progress on fixing some of the bugs. Since TFP is built on Envisioneer hopefully this process would feedback into their high end products too. I would, I think, be win win.
Glad to hear the 637 is working better for you and rendering better and, yes I agree, that software should work. Not much use if it doesn't!
I am not exactly sure of the precise relationship of TFP V14 and Envisioneer 5. It was released a week or two earlier but may even be a previous verion of Envisioneer, in some areas, although the appearance of both changed at the same time. They look 'identical' and will open each other's files, although TFP cannot always edit everything. Theoretically Envisioneer comes first and TFP inherits the functionality and fixes, so the bugs identified by Envisionner users have in the past flowed on to us in a later update or version.
To get bugs indentified in TFP actioned, I have undertaken to test any bugs reported on the forum by TFP users and, if they prove to be a bug (not just a user error or user inexperience), I will pass them on to IMSI Design, who will inturn submit them to CADSoft. I will see if we can get some feedback too but this may not be straight forward due to the fact that the fix would be in Envioneer, by another company and may not be applied to TFP until a patch (if urgent) or a new version was being prepared. Anyway I will see what can be done to get some feedback.
Please report any bugs and also, if you see some ways the program could be enhanced, then that would be good to know too. Generally both are reported in the Feature Requests section. While enhancements are naturally desired, they will presumably be tempered by Envisioneer, since TFP would obviously not be allowed to eclipse the parent product. If the enhancement is not already in Envisioneer, then presumably it would be applied there first and we would inherit it later. That's the problem with being the poor cousin to a Farrari!
EDIT: By the way, there is a bug on the change text size etc. on the Room Settings tab. Text settings elsewhere seem to be OK but this one causes a freeze and Envisioneer 5 has the same issue.
All the best with the program and the renderings. Later on, when you are happy with them, you may want to share some renderings on the forum.
Regards,
Allan
Thanks, I'll see what I can do regarding writing up any issues I find. It looks like I was unlucky and one of the first things I tried out had a bug. An unfortunate initial user experience.
If both the current Envisioneer and TFP can open each others files they are almost certainly the same piece of software under the hood. Anything else would require some seriously complex and error prone translations of file formats in at least one direction. Much simpler to just disable the more complex / expensive functionality.
There is a one feature I really hope they have added to V14 but I haven't had a chance to find out if it's there yet. I could never get a quarter turn at the top of a flight of stairs without having another step after the turn. I'll give it a shot tonight and post my results if I can't get it to work, hopefully someone will be able to tell me how it's done (or even if it can be done).
Let us know how you get on with the stairs. I hardly ever use them - the majority of houses in Australia are just single storey. We have lots of space so tend to go sideways instead of up, although the inner city areas are starting to go up in recent years. If you can't get the stairs to do what you want I will have a look at it, but you may know more about steps than I do.
Allan
I was reviewing this Thread and don't know you guys are talking about 637 Build. What is that?
I hav't had any crashes since I upgraded my computer size to 450mb ram and new pt 4 .
I just wish that as you learn the program which additional help such as there could be a simple set up and explanation as you use the program such as the nudge feature. At first tried to do with the mouse then I find there is a arrow nudge and then the nudge can be set. If you had dialog box that made you define thing you were know as you go through and learn to set the different defaults. The way IMSI designs its programs not just this program - You try to do something and just doesn't work and you find a default setting on somthing that you having even learned about.
Knowlege is built on words, meanings and definitions. More defined on a gradient the better. There seems to be some idea to have a quick start. Which is fine but there should be dialog box that you then define options and setting and a problem help or dialog tells you what are the options or consquences of chooing one or the other .
Just my thought.
William
Hi William,
It certainly is not easy trying to pick up some new software and feel comfortable. The first thing I did when I received the program was to read the User Guide from cover to cover - all 300+ pages. Quite a task but worth the effort - at least you know what it could do - you just had to remember whete to do it later!!
What I always suggest to new users it to go to Settings/Program Settings and read every option on every tab. That way you know what the defaults are and what you can change if it does not seem to work they way you prefer. At leaset you know what can be changed even if you do not actually change anything the first time around. Also good to study the Building Locations and Dimensions dialog boxes too - also in Settings.
This version has gone much further than previous ones to assist new ones, with the automatic Tutor you can turn on that explains how to use many of the tools and the various Wizards. The User Guide and Help is very comprehensive really compared to some software I have used and compared to previous versions but a shame that there is a bug in the Help that causes the help menu toolbar to dissappear at times, making the Search not available. You can search in the User Guide using Alt F.
637 is just the final part of the version number: V14.0.C1.637.
Allan
Dear Alan,
Thanks.
The number must be computer software speak give the version final number. My radar doesn't go that far.
I read the most of the whole manuel through when I first got it. I have Turbo cad also so was somewhat familier with the idea. The tutor does not seem to come on at all, unless its the ? mark on all the dialogs boxes as I when click the tutor either on the menu bar of or the toolbar nothing happens.
I will go through the dialog box as you suggest. The biggest thing I am find furstrating is the task of learning and comparing things for the set up. like this explanation.
"Number of steps. The number of times light is bounced in a scene during the radiosity process. Increasing this number may improve the lighting conditions in your rendered image, as well as its overall quality.
What is this the number of times light bounces. Are we talking about reflections. I thought the light bounces was a caculated item so would only change either in dark or sun. I have one customer that I was trying to work out how many lights would be needed to light the back yard to the even flood, If I knew the standard I would think with it easier. I haven't even touched the steps button yet.
Now I have to work out what would be true.
Nothing worthwhile is easy.
William
Hi William,
You will find the build number at the end of the version number in Help/About. 637 is the latest - there were a number of issues with the first release (624).
The Tutor can be set to come on in the Help menu. The button will appear depressed it it is on. The Tutor itself will only appear when you start to use one of the tools - eg the Surfaces tool.
Basic (raytrace) render is simply a calulation of the light values on a surface based on the light striking it from the various lights sources or reflecting off mirrors etc. Radiosity also takes into account light as it bounces off (or is even absorbed by) walls, floors, ceilings etc. As the help says the number of steps is the number of bounces that you allow it to do. In reality light will bounce endlessly so the number of bounces is restricted otherwise rendering times will be very long. Personally I have never changed the default setting - most of the defaults in everything are fine for most normal situations. From this you will realise that radiosity is used mainly for inside renders as there is little outside for light to bounce around in.
There are a number of older posts on the forum giving some rendering tests. You may find it helpfull to read those also. Do a search on Radiosity and Raytrace should bring them up for you.
Allan
Dear Alan,
I have been playing with the Advance render mode to find out what the problem is that I get error message and the computer stalls. I sorted some things out, however when I do the render adance is very dark and the light achieves very little. When do just the basic I it shows bright almost wahed out. This is a huge difference.
I also put in the Motion sensor light but it only has one light rather then the two physically shown. It also seems to spray onto the wall its on rather then out like a flood would. There does not seem to be a way to turn the bulbs outward like it a wall flood would. Any ideas?
These are the codes I get in the window when it stalls. I found the item that was causing it. It was an Awnings I used from the catelog and then made bigger and longer. Kind of need this but trying to fiqure that out. I reviewed all wall and floors and ceilings for breaks and then started removing items and testing. After removing the awning the advanced render worked. Still don't know what the codes mean.
Renderer:file parse error
File: Obj_920_2_0.ent
Line:<2487.092529-13615.480469 2729.954346 ><-1.#IND00-1#IND00 >
Line number : 5
Renderer:file parse error
File: Obj_920_2_0.ent
Line:<2487.092529-13615.480469 2739.954346 ><-1.#IND00-1#IND00 >
Line number : 5
Hi William,
It is very hard to be able to diagnose your lighting issues without seeing the settings you have in the Rendering dialog and the light fittings themselves. Any chance of posting the BLD file (or email it to me)? This will make it much easier otherwise I am just guessing.
Radiosity rendering is not simple and requires some experimenting if the model is more than just a room or two with simple lights in them. There are so many other factors that impact on the results.
The actual light is unrelated to the light fittings themselves. If you go to the light Properties and click the Lights tab, you will notice underneath the picture of the light fitting a red box. This is what makes the light
Dear Allan thanks I will try the lights. I used the XYz but just the middle,min I did not think of moving it out or down the distance you used. The might make a difference.
I am doing an outside patio. I built a house but mainly to get the patio. I also built it as is with the additions to what I am going to propose, so no comments on any design.
I will try to add the element back but has been playing with the rendering and advance rendering.
It taks a bit for my computer to run through the advance render, so it has time consuming.
Thanks for the assistance.
William
Hi William,
Well I got the same parse error that you did and after deleting the awning it was fine. I have replaced it with a sloping Surface.
I noticed that the file size was quite large and the render time quite long for what was there, so I had a look for anything unusual.
The blinds were obviously SkethcUp objects and they has a lot of stray artifacts at one end which would have casued a big memory jump so I replaced them with two TFP boxes to make the shape and a similar fabric (then duplicated them).
I also replaced the wall lights with standard TFP ones - the ones you had were not in my catalogue (so I thought they may have been imported too) and were also elaborate in design (hence memory). Replacing the blinds and lights reduced the file size to well under half what it was and then radioisity render took just 80 seconds.
Also I replaced the slab you had with a floor instead, so that it was possible to cut a hole in it for the swimming pool so that it sat in place correctly and I put a little bit of emmissive light in the water texture.
I've included the file again so you can see the changes.
Try rendering this one and see how it goes. you may want to experiment with the lights a little - I am not sure exactly what you are looking for in that regard.
Allan
Dear Allan,
Sorry I did not get back faster, but appreciate what you did. The file advanced rendered in about 3 minutes;so much faster. Huge difference and the lightsillumination seem to more match the basic render.
Why would the slab not let the pool insert as opposed to the floor material. Also what do you mean cut a hole in the floor. What option is that I did not see that?
I did not realized that importing a sketch up would create soo much memory. I knew the blinds had extra items to it but did not find anything close so pulled it from a manfacturer site.
I gues its better to make it from a shape as opposed to importing a sketch up item.
So, what do you think it was not rendering accurately because of to large a memory and conflicting building elements?
William
Hi William,
Not sure why the slab cannot have a hole cut in it - just the way it is programmed. The Cut Opening is on the right mouse click along with lots of other things that you can do. Two of the unwritten rules in TFP are to right click and double click (within dialog boxes) - you will be suprised what opens up!
Generally any imports are large, so if something can be created internally (and almost ANYTHING can), then that is a better way to go. The blinds should not have been that big as they were just two boxes but it was the dozens of little bits and pieces hanging off one end that caused the main problem. They would increase memory (because of all the extral polygons), render time (as it tries to calculate all the shadows the extra bits would create) and it may have contributed to the crashing, although the awning seemed to fix that problem.
Have a look at these references for ways to create other elements: http://forums.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,763.0.html (http://forums.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,763.0.html), http://forums.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,793.0.html (http://forums.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,793.0.html), http://forums.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,793.0.html (http://forums.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,793.0.html), http://forums.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,315.0.html (http://forums.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,315.0.html).
Some of those do involve exporting and re importing again which will contribute to memory but you would only do that if the item is something you want to re-use in future projects.
Allan
Just upgraded to V14 TFPlan from Fplan (download from the IMSI UK agents) 15 minutes in and experienced a total crash (on 1 year old Toshiba Laptop running Vista, no mouse). I was looking at a ground floor plan in 3d at the time, trying to find the pan command, just found the zoom. It didn't seem to have the camera of FP.
As it was a download there was no quickstart guide, so I am on slow start, can it be downloaded as a PDF from anywhere?
Do IMSI have a bugfix /patch page they like they used to have for TCAD, so if my version from Avanquest is not the 'unbugged' one I can patch it up?
In UK we tend to use cavity walls, i.e. outer skin of facing bricks ~102mm thick, cavity ~75mm mostly filled with insulation bats these days, then an inner skin of larger ~100mm thick blockwork. Our non-loadbearing internal walls are often wood studwork covered with outer layers of 12mm gypsum plasterboard finished with final skim of plaster. Can these be added as wall options by the user?
I want to go from TFPlan to TCad and ideally would the option to have both a simple wall in TBFP or a complex one, so that on import to TCAD the detail is there for working drawings.
In FP I photographed typical UK brick walls to get the rendering more realistic, can this be done with TFP, is there a better way to do this? (I assume something similar can be done in TFP?)
Not found it yet but does TFP have an option to tab into text box to give walls an exact length, can't find it yet?
Hi Peter,
Welcome to TurboFLOORPLAN and the Forum!
You will find TFP has come a long way from FP3D, though I still have fond memories of it. TFP is much more flexible the walls especially.
Hardware Acceleration is still an issue in TFP on some PCs, as it was in FP3D, but there is a simple way to turn if off without closing the program and rebooting as we used to do. The HA was probably on by default when you installed so that may have been the cause of the crash. Settings/Program Settings /Graphics. If you have other display or crash issues try turning that off as a first check.
I would suggest reading through all the tabs in Settings/Program Settings as this will give alert you to all the things that are preset so you know where to change the way things work if you want. Strange that the Quick Start Guide does not come with the download - I will have to suggest that they arrange it for future versions. The is the User Guide of course. By the time you read all 150+ pages you will be an expert! There are several Wizards of course and the Tool Tutor that can give you some quick guidance. Actually if you are familiar with FP3D then you want take long to pick it up. Some of the dialog boxes are identical.
The camera is a bit different - you have to move both the camera and the target point on the mini plan. On the main plan you can add a camera anywhere - similar to the way you moved it on the FP3D mini plan. (3D Camera icon). You can add as many cameras as you like and name them but it seems to have an effect on memory if you set too many - I am still checking that out.
There is a link at the bottom of this Forum to a patch. Version should end with 637. That is the latest. Bugs are generally reported in the Feature Requests section - but check first as sometimes what has been thought of as a big is more often than not just a question of not knowing how something works. I use TFP every day and there are very few 'bugs' as such. The toolbar in the Help menu is one - it disappears sometimes so there is no Search as a result. There are a few tweaks necessary in the Advanced (Radiosity) Rendering to get Interior/Exterior lighting balanced and one bug with the interior wall surface when used outside the main walls - it renders black, but there is a simple workaround for that. They are the only things I can think of at present.
The latter point about the walls relates to your cavity wall question. The wall detail in TFP if greatly advanced on FP3D. It even goes as far as showing wall framing, cavity etc. Not all walls create the outside the cavity - you must choose the right one and even then the outside 'bricks' will not be added unless 4 walls form an enclosed space (a room). It will then detect the outside as an exterior wall and add the brick and cavity. I have added a BIM file that has a cavity wall you may want to add to your catalogue. (Import at File / Catalogs / Import BIM file.) Unfortunately you cannot set all the individual component details however - that requires the parent program (Envisioneer) at umpteen times the price.
Internal walls automatically have studs (you can set them to whatever size shape of timber, steel etc that you want) and it adds the plaster surface. By default the studs are turned off but you can turn them on for drawing detail in the View Filter (Eye icon). Attached images shows the detail of the cavity wall in the plan view if you move in close.
TFP draws all the detail usually needed for plans and unless you have something extremely complex, you may not even need to resort to TurboCAD. It does elevations and sections and the live Cutaway tool is fascinating to use. You may like to read this article and the attached tutorial, about using TFP to print the plans: http://forums.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,877.0.html (http://forums.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,877.0.html)
One unwritten rule about TFP - Double click everything in dialog boxes (you will be amazed at what detail opens up - you can even set the colour and thickness of lines on plans) and check out the right click on model elements and in the catalog list - many other functions are available. You can make your own furniture, add your own photos and textures, turn them around, spread them out, make them shiny, transparent or emit light. You can do almost anything and make almost anything if it does not exist already.
Just for fun I turned off the brick and other wall surfaces and roof in one of my recent models, so you can see the steel channe frames in the inside walls and timber roof structure and a closeup one too.
Have fun and ask if you get stuck.
Allan
Thank you very much !!
Sure enough the Avanquest download version version is 624 so I will 'take it 'back' to the newer patched version.
Allan,
What should happen at the transfer stage? I have a new tree on the rhs and a similar tree on LHS I press transfer & ok but then I can't find a cavity wall in the insert wall dialogue. Tried shut down and restart but this didn't yield the cavity wall. Should I drill down the RHS and find the particular cavity wall element then transfer? Or do I have to enable a non-standard catalogue?
Thanks
ps can I create my own cavity wall with standard UK facing brick outer leaf. Our brick is 215mm long, 102.5mm wide and 65 mm high we put a 10mm gap between bricks. One of the standard aircrete (lightweight conrete) blocks is 440mm long, 215mm high and 100mm wide, again with a 10mm mortar gap all round. Gap in between the two leafs is 75mm.
so 102.5mm then 75mm then 100mm are the walls
Peter,
If you just click the + alongside the Elements on the right hand pane it will expand and you should see the cavity walls listed. Select them and click the transfer. If you have the walls panel open in TFP you should see the walls appears in your catalogue a few seconds later.
You can right click the wall in the catalogue tree and select Add Element. This will create a new one based on the one you have selected. The only setting you can change however in the internal structure as far as the plan drawing is concerned is the thickness of the interior portion of the wall - you cannot set the cavity width or outer brick thickness in this version. To get the overall thickness correct for the whole wall, you have to adjust this inner wall thickness. I doubt that any planning people are going to measure the width of the cavity as long as a note on the plan says what it is.
Allan
Thanks Allan,
Please can you double check that the BIM file you supplied has the cavity wall included? I don't appear to see it listed in there when I upload it (import).
BTW Are there other catalogs out there in a database somewhere for use with TFP?
Thanks again,
Peter
Doh !! just seen 'Additional Catalogs' at the top, sorry!
Peter,
The BIM I attached should have the cavity walls in it. I have just opened it as if to import into my TFP and the image below is what it shows, so you should see the same thing if you click the + beside Elements in the right hand side panel. The Left is your existing catalog of course.
Be cautious about adding lots of elements to your catalogue from other sources. Add the ones you may use but as the catalog size grows things may slow down. Obviously you can delete things you know you will never use of course to compensate. Make sure you back up your catalog regularly or any customised or added elements or textures could be lost. If you re-install for any reason the catalog will be replaced, so rename or keep a copy elsewhere so you can connect back to it if necessary.
Let us know how you get on with the stairs.
Allan