Open GL HW Acceleration

[Doug.S]

We all know h/w accel  (HWA) has long been an issue with FP and TFP.

If its any consolation, Adobe Photoshop new release CS4 now uses OpenGL HWA for certain tasks and users are complaining about how it does not always work.  At least Adobe does list a set of video cards that were tested but since the HWA requirements are quite high (they do list actual requirements), not many old cards work...needs latest cards and latest drivers.

I hope any new fixes for TFP don't require even newer video cards.... I'm not ready to buy a new PC until Windows 7 replaces Vista....hoping its better than Vista and 64 bit h/w and s/w are better matched....its a crap shoot for drivers and s/w that will run 32/64 bit modes.

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Doug,

It will be interesting to see how it develops. 

At work I recently got the whole CS3 suite (ordered Flash but ended up with Premier, After Effects, Illustrator, Encore, Photoshop etc, etc, etc as well) and I am so dissappointed with it all. I have used many photo editors over the years, finally settling on PaintShop Pro as it was so easy to use and intuitive and I could not afford PhotoShop so did not even look at it. Since PaintShop Pro was obviously copying Photoshop, I suppose I expected Photoshop to be so much better, (which it should be at 10 times the price!), but I cannot believe that you cannot even do such common things as customise the toolbars - or have I just missed it? (cant find it in the help either). Everything is so slow to use - so many clicks to do simple things. There are keystroke options of course, even as PaintShop Pro has but even just selecting a tool is not simple: click, hold and click again and then changing its settings: click, another click and drag and release. Why have they made it so hard? I know this is not a Photoshop forum but was just curious whether this is all that still the same in CS4?

In PaintShop Pro all the individual tools can be separated out of the flyout menus and there are hundreds more that can be added in if you want, so virtually everthing is one click. If you need to modify the tool, it is again only one click and continue to drag to change the setting. Has that flexability been added into CS4?

Anyway, after putting up with it for weeks, I have finally given up and gone back to PaintShop Pro, as it is so much quicker to use and so far, for my particular work anyway (photo editing for magazines and web) I have not found anything it cannot do.

It is not just Photoshop either - all the other suite members are so UN-intuitive. Adobe should have a look at some of the other products that do the same thing, to see how easy it can be. It seems to me that they think that because these products do technical things, they have to look and act that way - they dont!  Unfortunately I will have to stay with Flash - the boss won't be impressed if I said I wanted Swish instead!  I haven't told him I have gone back to PaintShop Pro - he doesn't know the difference anyway (and he get the results quicker!)

Thankfully I didn't have to pay for it or I would have been even more disappointed.

Allan

[Doug.S]

Adobe does have a lengthy web page to explain all about issues, fixes, and work-arounds as well as what works and why or why not....lots of help to get CS4 HWA to work even with older video cards.

Yes Photoshop is sometimes less than intuitive and Illustrator suffers similar compared to some other programs....CS4 looks to be a little easier in some areas but mostly the same with new features added.  I have not upgraded to it yet....will wait for .01 rev first.

Since I've been using Ps and Illy for many years, I can find my way around quite easily and there are keystroke shortcuts for just about anything. And everything can be made keystroke defined by a user....so often used things are fast to get to. I also  use dual monitors and have all tools on right side monitor so they are handy.  But not everyone loves Ps just like people find TFP hard at first until it becomes familiar.

That said, Ps is the most powerful image editor and is full of features not necessarily handy with photo images and is the defacto world standard "Cadillac" with many times the books and tuts available....but it is a learning experience and great if you need the special features.  But like any deep program...easier to use something else if it suffices for the task at hand.  Layered files interchange between Adobe apps well.  Premiere works very well as a video editor program.

Most tool settings are in a toolbar across the top as each tool is selected...like b for brush  c for crop etc.

[Voodooman]

Hi

I really dont get this issue with the hardware accelleration.  One of the reasons i was forced to stop using Envisioneer (the parent of TFP) was the evry poor 3D performance. I remodel old Victorian houses and they are not big houses but tend to be complex with odd shapes and different levels. I use Arcon, an old product that uses OpenGL and the 3D performance is stunning.

If it can work with a 10 year old product why not TFP and Envisioneer?

I  have been using PaintShopPro on Allans recommendation and it is a great product apart from the stupid black interface which is a trend I dislike.


Peter

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Peter,

HA mystifies me too but I don't know enough about it to make any sense of it. I have found TFP much better then FloorPlan 3D in that regard and have no complaints with the 3D performance. Only problem I have now is on one PC where I have to diable it while I do Advanced render the othe PVC is OK all the time.

Re PaintShop Pro - mine does not have a black interface but I am still using V11.  I almost bought V12 today but decided to wait till I get home, as I am on holiday in Melbourne (Aust) at present and concerned about baggage weight for the return flight to Perth. Presumably you must have a later version - is it black now?

Allan

[Voodooman]

Hi Allan

I think one thing that causes performance problems is the use of textures, brick, stone etc.

If I use plain rendered finishes its much better.  Unfortunately most of the old houses I deal with are stone or brick so I dont have choices. 

My PSP is V12 and it has the Graphite Interface.  You can switch it off but IMO it looks worse.  Seems to be a bit of a trend.  Kerkythea has the same as has 3dPaintbrush.

I have been using 3DPaintbrush for rendering 3DS models of my projects.  It doesnt have the 3D rendering capability of TFP but enables very quick presentation pseudo renders.  What I mean is that you can adjust lighting on a model which gives the shading created by sun, moon and other effects but does not actually cast shadows as such.  The renders are in realtime - i.e. instant.  I dont mind the fact that there are no shadows thrown as I am looking more for illustration than photo realism.

Peter

[Allan Chesney]

Peter,

At a risk of making this a PaintShop Pro thread, would you mind just answering another question about V12 for me?  Have they improved the Organizer (used to be called Browse in previous versions)?  I don't know if you had any previous versions, but since it was taken over by Corel they changed the Browse to the Organizer and ruined it completely.

Browse worked beautifully - a typical Windows Explorer type 'tree', that listed and displayed the files on your computer as thumbnails and you could copy/paste or move images between files (as well as rotate etc etc) - very familiar and simple. 

With Organizer (in V11) you have to add the folders into the browse to make up a 'tree', instead of them being there automatically, so if you change network drives or add in a new card or USB, it is not there - you have to find it, add it in and then wait while it creates the thumbnails - ages sometimes, if you are dealing with huge business network drives as I often do. Having finally got them into the "DISorganizer" you find the folders are not in the same 'tree' order that they are using Windows Explorer. Worse still, you can no longer right click an image or group of images and copy from there and paste from the USB for example to the C drive, as you previously could. You can drag and move it that way, but often it is only a copy I need not a move, especially from the network to the laptop C drive. Only solution is to go back to Windows Explorer to do it there or open the file in PSP (a pain if there are many or are big files - some of mine get up to 80MB) and save it to the new location.

Why they changed something that worked beautifully I cannot understand. I am hoping with V12 they have seen the 'error of their ways' and reverted back or at least cleaned it up to allow the previous functionality. If they have fixed what they have broken I may buy it now and pay the excess baggage - it will be worth it, as the present one irritates me so much!! 

You comments will be appreciated as it will decided whether I go to V12 or wait until they fix it in a later version!

Thanks,

Allan

[Doug.S]

HA mystifies me too but I don't know enough about it to make any sense of it.
Allan

HA is not a mysterious concept but the details are quite messy.  Essentially graphical rendering onto the screen is complex but quite repetitive and there are very commonly repeatable things that occur as we use 3D display methods. Most everything is geometric and those equations are well known mathematically; including the transforms for motion and rotation and size changes. The computer game developers are the experts so far as they need better quality and fast displays to satisfy action games.

HA simply codes those math operations and use another processor (GPU) to execute subroutines in local memory (using hardware hard-wired, instead of software code) and has handy close fast access to video display memory (such as 512MB video cards) so moving large data sets from GPU to video display is fast....and the display load is done in the GPU so the CPU (computer "brain") has more computational cycles and thus works more for the users program. Its a better balanced system rather than use CPU power for display loads.

The problem is that everyone must communicate in the same 'language'....thus the codes are set for various versions of GPU shading, motion, geometries, etc.   And since all programmers don't know all graphics cards and also try to run new stuff....older cards don't always work with new programs. And even some old programs don't work with new cards.  But good programmers make sure their programs, even if new, will work with older video cards.....or at least they define the video card specs required so one can be sure they have a sufficiently adequate GPU card....and the card mfg also writes good driver coding for past and newer OS's and CPU (AMD vs Intel) language.

Everyone agreeing to and using standards and testing to ensure they meet the standards...and providing bug fixes for problems...then we are all happy users. But alas, life just doesn't line up so smoothly. And those that sell poor products will eventually get weeded out of business.  Anything that gets coded wrong (from software or hardware or firmware) can result in an ugly display or a crash.

[Voodooman]

Hi Allan

I guess the Organizer is unchanged.

Its not something I have previously used.  However when I tried to change to the D: drive to browse for files it went off and started cataloguing the drive - not what I wanted at all, so I guess its not changed at all.

Why do these programs insist on doing this.  I use Picasa for that - I dont need to have  this feature which is pretty much useless if you have lots of images anyway.

Even worse, I clicked the all photos option and its gone off into oblivion trying to display my photos.  Presently at 5000+ and still trying to load them all after a couple of minutes - guess 2gb of memory and a dual core is not enough....

I got V12/X2 new and boxed very cheap on eBay.  Reviews on Amazon are not very good as compared to previous versions.

I dont have previous version so I dont have a comparison.

Regards


Peter

Regrads

[Allan Chesney]

Thanks Peter, Looks like I will be saving my money for a little while - I thought they may have fixed it. Maybe not enough have complained. I can't understand why these companies try to fix things that aren't broken!! No doubt the new owners (Corel) trying to put their stamp on things.  The Browse on previous versions worked beautifully. Everything else is OK in V11 but they definately need to do something with the Organizer!

Thanks again,
Allan