Render Crash in Vista

[Ondoher]

Just bought this program recently. Interesting that it appears to be the next version of 3D home Architect, which I've always loved and which Punch! Software killed.

Anyway, I have a 4G, Vista 64, dual processor, HP laptop, with two monitors and an nvidia graphics processor. I am unable to render. The program crashes when I try, and rendering to TGA produces an 18 byte file.

I'd be happy to post the file if necessary. Please help.

[Allan Chesney]

Hi,  Welcome to the Forum.

As you suspected, there is a connection with 3D Home Architect, and TFP will open some versions of the 3DHA files. TFP is a cutdown verion of Envisioneer producted by CADsoft, so I suspect they probably all came from the same stable.

I don't have Vista but there are a number of posts about it so use the Search to find these. 

You did not say how you were doing the rendering - is it Basic or Advanced that is crashing or do both?  Also you mentioned rendering to a TGA file but TFP does not do that. It will File/Export the screen image to TGA but the 3D photorealistic rendering (View/3D Real View) is only to a BMP or JPG file.

Without having any further information about how you are rendering, all I can suggest at this stage, is to go to Settings/Program Settings/ Graphics and try it with Hardware Acceleration turned off, as this can sometimes cause odd things to happen on some PCs.

Since you have just bought the program I am assuming it is V14.  If it happens to be V12, then you may need to apply the Patch linked at the bottom of the forum, as it did fix a crashing issue while rendering in Advanced mode.

Let us know how you get on with it.

Allan

[Ondoher]

Hi,  Welcome to the Forum.

As you suspected, there is a connection with 3D Home Architect, and TFP will open some versions of the 3DHA files. TFP is a cutdown verion of Envisioneer producted by CADsoft, so I suspect they probably all came from the same stable.

I don't have Vista but there are a number of posts about it so use the Search to find these. 

You did not say how you were doing the rendering - is it Basic or Advanced that is crashing or do both?  Also you mentioned rendering to a TGA file but TFP does not do that. It will File/Export the screen image to TGA but the 3D photorealistic rendering (View/3D Real View) is only to a BMP or JPG file.

Don't know what i was thinking about the TGA file. It sort of appeared where I was doing the rendering. I tried both bmp and jpg again, and got the same result. nothing. Happens in both advanced and basic. Another user did experience a similar problem, but I saw no resolution. Here is the post I was speaking of: http://forums.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,748.msg3591.html#msg3591

When not rendering to a file, I get a program crash.

Without having any further information about how you are rendering, all I can suggest at this stage, is to go to Settings/Program Settings/ Graphics and try it with Hardware Acceleration turned off, as this can sometimes cause odd things to happen on some PCs.

Since you have just bought the program I am assuming it is V14.  If it happens to be V12, then you may need to apply the Patch linked at the bottom of the forum, as it did fix a crashing issue while rendering in Advanced mode.

version 14.0.C1.637
Tried with and without acceleration.

Let us know how you get on with it.

Allan

Thank you

Addendum:
I just loaded sample 1, viewed camera 3, and did a basic render to both file and not. No file and crash when not rendered to file.

[Allan Chesney]

Hi again,

I read the earlier post you mentioned and it certainly sounds smilar to your experience. Unfortunately in that case the same user did not reply so we don't know if any of the suggestions worked in that case.

You said that you "tried both bmp and jpg again, and got the same result. nothing. Happens in both advanced and basic."   When you say that nothing happens do you mean that the screen does not change in any way when you click the Render button - literally nothing happens?  Or does the screen just freeze and effectively the program crashes?   

You said it crashes unless you render to a file. Actually I have never tried not rendering to a file as I can't see what the point would be to do so but when rendered to a file does it create a rendered view on screen but just not create a file or does it just create a blank, or all whilte/all black 'image'?

What happens when you try a new model, just 4 walls and a roof?  Does that render Ok?  If it does, it may be worth posting or emailing the BLD file so I can try it out and see if I get the same result.  If however it works for me or others, then it would seem like a canflict somewhere between TFP and Vista (or something else on your PC).

Hopefully we can get to the bottom of it.

Allan

[Ondoher]

Hi again,

I read the earlier post you mentioned and it certainly sounds smilar to your experience. Unfortunately in that case the same user did not reply so we don't know if any of the suggestions worked in that case.

You said that you "tried both bmp and jpg again, and got the same result. nothing. Happens in both advanced and basic."   When you say that nothing happens do you mean that the screen does not change in any way when you click the Render button - literally nothing happens?  Or does the screen just freeze and effectively the program crashes?   

You said it crashes unless you render to a file. Actually I have never tried not rendering to a file as I can't see what the point would be to do so but when rendered to a file does it create a rendered view on screen but just not create a file or does it just create a blank, or all whilte/all black 'image'?

I'm sorry, when rendering to a file, it first says "calculating shadows" and then says "Done!" but there is no file. When rendered to the screen (just to get a preview) it again says Done! just before it crashes.

What happens when you try a new model, just 4 walls and a roof?  Does that render Ok?  If it does, it may be worth posting or emailing the BLD file so I can try it out and see if I get the same result.  If however it works for me or others, then it would seem like a canflict somewhere between TFP and Vista (or something else on your PC).

Hopefully we can get to the bottom of it.

Allan

I did try it with one of the sample files, Sample 1 and I rendered using Camera 1. These files are surely good. But I will try the simplest example i can.

Addendum:
I just used the design builder to create the simplest possible house. Added a camera and rendered to screen. I got the same crash.

[Allan Chesney]

I'm sorry, when rendering to a file, it first says "calculating shadows" and then says "Done!" but there is no file. When rendered to the screen (just to get a preview) it again says Done! just before it crashes.

A few questions below to try to narrow this down, to locate where the issue begins. 

Before you begin the render there should be a smaller view of the the 3D model. (I assume you get that?)

Basic render (of 4 walls and a roof) should take about 5 seconds and instantly replace the small view of the model.

Advanced render should initially replace the 3D model view and show only your background image (and plants if you have any). It may first go completely white then go completely black (except for your background image) and slowly get lighter until the 3D Radiosity phase has finished. It will then start the Raytrace phase, where it will build the 2D image line by line from the middle up and the bottom up, creating reflections etc as it goes, until complete.

These stages should happen whether you render to a file or not.  When Advanced has complete you should then be able to click on the Radiosity radio button and see the 3D radiosity view (and you should be able to walk around it). You can also switch back to the 2D image Raytrace image.  It is also possible to reposition the camera (Modify Viewpoint) and then just do the Raytrace render again from another angle without having to go through the Radiosity render again (as it does the whole model in 3D so you do not have to repeat that phase).

Does any part of this process happen at all?  Do you see the view of the model initially?  When the render starts what happens in the preview screen - does the image start to develop?  When it says 'done' has it produced an onscreen image at all, even if it has not produced a file?  What is left on the screen?

Just to make sure there are no settings problems, can you post a screen image of your Rendering settings?  Have you modified these at all?

The reason I suggest to just try rendering 4 walls and a roof is because that is the most basic building possible using only two elements Wall and Roof, or 3 if auto floor is turned on. Sample 1 is reasonably complex and was also created for a previous version so may introduce other issues.  The wizard is a similar situation, hence the suggestion of just a very basic building to rule out other issues or elements that may be causing a conflict somewhere in your system.

If 4 walls and a roof will render, then other things can be added in the hope of finally identifying something that is causing the problem that you can avoid or can be passed on to the technical people.  Of course, if that will not render either, (on Basic or Advanced, to a BMP and JPG), your settings are OK and it will render on another PC, then we have something to take to the technical support people to find the problem.

By the way, the reason I said earlier that I could not see any point in not rendering to file was because, if the preview is OK and you want it as it is, then you have to render it all over again.  If you are doing some large models as I do, in high resolution, a single render can sometimes take an hour or two. It takes the same time to produce the file anyway, so may as well do it from the start.  If it is not quite right and you start the render again, the previous file is overwritten anyway - unless you change the name, so nothing is lost.

I you have problems with the 4 walls and roof model, please post it here so we an try it too.

Allan

[Ondoher]

I'm sorry, when rendering to a file, it first says "calculating shadows" and then says "Done!" but there is no file. When rendered to the screen (just to get a preview) it again says Done! just before it crashes.

A few questions below to try to narrow this down, to locate where the issue begins. 

Before you begin the render there should be a smaller view of the the 3D model. (I assume you get that?)

Basic render (of 4 walls and a roof) should take about 5 seconds and instantly replace the small view of the model.

Takes about a second or less and turns white when rendered to file.

Advanced render should initially replace the 3D model view and show only your background image (and plants if you have any). It may first go completely white then go completely black (except for your background image) and slowly get lighter until the 3D Radiosity phase has finished. It will then start the Raytrace phase, where it will build the 2D image line by line from the middle up and the bottom up, creating reflections etc as it goes, until complete.

These stages should happen whether you render to a file or not.  When Advanced has complete you should then be able to click on the Radiosity radio button and see the 3D radiosity view (and you should be able to walk around it). You can also switch back to the 2D image Raytrace image.  It is also possible to reposition the camera (Modify Viewpoint) and then just do the Raytrace render again from another angle without having to go through the Radiosity render again (as it does the whole model in 3D so you do not have to repeat that phase).

Does any part of this process happen at all?  Do you see the view of the model initially?  When the render starts what happens in the preview screen - does the image start to develop?  When it says 'done' has it produced an onscreen image at all, even if it has not produced a file?  What is left on the screen?

The screen goes black. It runs through the ray trace but remains black throughout. does 600 lines in 18 seconds

Just to make sure there are no settings problems, can you post a screen image of your Rendering settings?  Have you modified these at all?

no

The reason I suggest to just try rendering 4 walls and a roof is because that is the most basic building possible using only two elements Wall and Roof, or 3 if auto floor is turned on. Sample 1 is reasonably complex and was also created for a previous version so may introduce other issues.  The wizard is a similar situation, hence the suggestion of just a very basic building to rule out other issues or elements that may be causing a conflict somewhere in your system.


If 4 walls and a roof will render, then other things can be added in the hope of finally identifying something that is causing the problem that you can avoid or can be passed on to the technical people.  Of course, if that will not render either, (on Basic or Advanced, to a BMP and JPG), your settings are OK and it will render on another PC, then we have something to take to the technical support people to find the problem.

Created a simple four walls and a roof model. Same result. Nothing but a black screen. This simple model had 54 polygons, the model made with the wizard had 50. I deleted the floor and got 48. Same result in all cases.

By the way, the reason I said earlier that I could not see any point in not rendering to file was because, if the preview is OK and you want it as it is, then you have to render it all over again.  If you are doing some large models as I do, in high resolution, a single render can sometimes take an hour or two. It takes the same time to produce the file anyway, so may as well do it from the start.  If it is not quite right and you start the render again, the previous file is overwritten anyway - unless you change the name, so nothing is lost.

I you have problems with the 4 walls and roof model, please post it here so we an try it too.

I did not know that about rendering, thanks. I've posted the basic model not made with the wizard.

Allan

[Allan Chesney]

Hi again,

Well I tried your test file and first rendered on the inside 3D view on with which it opened and I got the same Black results as you as you did.  I did however expect that, as it was in inside view and there were no lights or windows and so the render was totally black as there was no light on the objects in the room.

I then moved the camera outside to try an exterior view. This too rendered totally black which I again expected, as the background was set to black (or I did not have the image you were using and it reveerted to black) and I noticed in your settings that you did not have the sun enabled.  Again there was no light on the scene (no sun or outside lights) and hence the render was black.

I turned the sun on and rendered again and a normal render occurred although the sky was still black of course and the terrain was grey, again presumably because I did not have the texture in my system for the terrain surface (usually one of the grass textures).

I then moved the camera inside again and added one light fitting and it rendered normally.  Incidentally adding the single light fitting took the 48 polygon count to 1397 just for one light. I then added a ceiling (6 polygons for the 6 surfaces) and a floor (another 6) taking it to 1409. When I tried the render of Sample 1 that is with my particular copy of TFP (they do vary) it was 51,110 polygons so quite a complex model!!

Still in the askpect of light on the scene, I noticed in your Global settings ,that you had it set to "Use current time for rendering".  This would mean that, if you were rendering at night, the rendering would again be totally black for an exterior scene, even if you had the sun enabled, as there would be no sunlight (unless you had exterior lights of course).

On a slightly different thought,r I notice in you Building Settings, there were only a Ground and Second Floor (by default there is a Foundation too) and the Ground "floor level" was set to zero, which places it right on the same level as the Terrain which defaults to zero. This means that when you add a floor you get two surfaces competing with each other ,as they are both at level zero. You will get the two textures (eg Grass and wooden floor) both trying to display on the floor surface.  Generally a floor is at least a short distance above the Terrain to prevent flooding, although there is probably not much chance of that in a  computer (unless you spill some coffee!!). If you do want the floor at zero, you need to check the box in Settings/Program Settings/Terrain "Auto-cut terrain around building" and it will cut a hole in the terrain and overcome the conflict with the floor surface.

Attached is the render settings that I use for test renders. When I do a final render, I set the Quality Level to 5 (you need this to turn on all the lights if there are many) and the image size to whatever I want, usually 1024x786 or a custom size.

On Global settings I always turn off "Use current time for rendering" and have the time of day set to 9 -10 am.  This gives a nice shadow length.  Any earlier and they are too long and the whole scene is darker and closer to midday shadows are fewer and the sun areas can be quite bright.  If you ahve both inside and outside lighting, Overcast setting works best.

I have also attached a template file for you to try. Go to Settings/Program Settings/General and it will tell you where the templates are located on your computer.  Copy this template file into the same folder and change the name a little (if it is the same as the one you are already using).  The in the same General settings dialog box, select this new template as your default template.

In the General settings tick the box "Startup using Project Template" and untick "Launch Wizard....".  Now when you create new project it will use this template instead of the one you had originally. Create a new 4 walls, a ceiling, floor and a roof and insert 1 light and try a render at the settings in the image below.

The reason I have suggested changing this template is an experiment (if you don't mind) as I noticed that when I rendered your model with a ceiling, the ceiling rendered black but when I switched to my template it was OK.  I have heard of this black ceiling issue before and I was just wondering if it is connected to an issue in the default template that is maybe in some copies of the program.  It would be good if you can try that, as it may solve some of your problems and others too.  I am using XP not Vista but I can't see how that would affect the ceiling render.

The black ceiling was the only issue I had with your file - everything else rendered quite normally when there was light on the scene.

Try rendering your test model (Advanced not Basic) with the sun enabled and/or a light in the scene and see if you get a render then and see if the ceiling is black.  Then try the template change and create the model again. It will be interesting to see what results your get.

While I have been typing this and fiddling with other things, I have been rendering Sample 1 and the result is below for your interest.  It was done at Quality Level 3 only and to took 1 hour and 5 minutes! It would be 2 -3 times longer at Level 5. It is a complex model as I said before.  Your PC would be a somewhat quicker than mine as the specs are better.  The second image took just over 3 minutes as I just modified the position, so it only had to do the Raytrace (Step 2) the second time - so once you get a good render just reposition the camera to make other images - saves a LOT of time. Don't forget to rename them though each time or they overwrite with no warning!!   Can't say I like the style (or colour) of the house but the spa look OK. Bit public for me though!

Allan.

[Ondoher]

Hi again,

Well I tried your test file and first rendered on the inside 3D view on with which it opened and I got the same Black results as you as you did.  I did however expect that, as it was in inside view and there were no lights or windows and so the render was totally black as there was no light on the objects in the room.

I then moved the camera outside to try an exterior view. This too rendered totally black which I again expected, as the background was set to black (or I did not have the image you were using and it reveerted to black) and I noticed in your settings that you did not have the sun enabled.  Again there was no light on the scene (no sun or outside lights) and hence the render was black.

I turned the sun on and rendered again and a normal render occurred although the sky was still black of course and the terrain was grey, again presumably because I did not have the texture in my system for the terrain surface (usually one of the grass textures).

I then moved the camera inside again and added one light fitting and it rendered normally.  Incidentally adding the single light fitting took the 48 polygon count to 1397 just for one light. I then added a ceiling (6 polygons for the 6 surfaces) and a floor (another 6) taking it to 1409. When I tried the render of Sample 1 that is with my particular copy of TFP (they do vary) it was 51,110 polygons so quite a complex model!!

Still in the askpect of light on the scene, I noticed in your Global settings ,that you had it set to "Use current time for rendering".  This would mean that, if you were rendering at night, the rendering would again be totally black for an exterior scene, even if you had the sun enabled, as there would be no sunlight (unless you had exterior lights of course).

On a slightly different thought,r I notice in you Building Settings, there were only a Ground and Second Floor (by default there is a Foundation too) and the Ground "floor level" was set to zero, which places it right on the same level as the Terrain which defaults to zero. This means that when you add a floor you get two surfaces competing with each other ,as they are both at level zero. You will get the two textures (eg Grass and wooden floor) both trying to display on the floor surface.  Generally a floor is at least a short distance above the Terrain to prevent flooding, although there is probably not much chance of that in a  computer (unless you spill some coffee!!). If you do want the floor at zero, you need to check the box in Settings/Program Settings/Terrain "Auto-cut terrain around building" and it will cut a hole in the terrain and overcome the conflict with the floor surface.

Attached is the render settings that I use for test renders. When I do a final render, I set the Quality Level to 5 (you need this to turn on all the lights if there are many) and the image size to whatever I want, usually 1024x786 or a custom size.

On Global settings I always turn off "Use current time for rendering" and have the time of day set to 9 -10 am.  This gives a nice shadow length.  Any earlier and they are too long and the whole scene is darker and closer to midday shadows are fewer and the sun areas can be quite bright.  If you ahve both inside and outside lighting, Overcast setting works best.

I have also attached a template file for you to try. Go to Settings/Program Settings/General and it will tell you where the templates are located on your computer.  Copy this template file into the same folder and change the name a little (if it is the same as the one you are already using).  The in the same General settings dialog box, select this new template as your default template.

In the General settings tick the box "Startup using Project Template" and untick "Launch Wizard....".  Now when you create new project it will use this template instead of the one you had originally. Create a new 4 walls, a ceiling, floor and a roof and insert 1 light and try a render at the settings in the image below.

The reason I have suggested changing this template is an experiment (if you don't mind) as I noticed that when I rendered your model with a ceiling, the ceiling rendered black but when I switched to my template it was OK.  I have heard of this black ceiling issue before and I was just wondering if it is connected to an issue in the default template that is maybe in some copies of the program.  It would be good if you can try that, as it may solve some of your problems and others too.  I am using XP not Vista but I can't see how that would affect the ceiling render.

The black ceiling was the only issue I had with your file - everything else rendered quite normally when there was light on the scene.

Try rendering your test model (Advanced not Basic) with the sun enabled and/or a light in the scene and see if you get a render then and see if the ceiling is black.  Then try the template change and create the model again. It will be interesting to see what results your get.

While I have been typing this and fiddling with other things, I have been rendering Sample 1 and the result is below for your interest.  It was done at Quality Level 3 only and to took 1 hour and 5 minutes! It would be 2 -3 times longer at Level 5. It is a complex model as I said before.  Your PC would be a somewhat quicker than mine as the specs are better.  The second image took just over 3 minutes as I just modified the position, so it only had to do the Raytrace (Step 2) the second time - so once you get a good render just reposition the camera to make other images - saves a LOT of time. Don't forget to rename them though each time or they overwrite with no warning!!   Can't say I like the style (or colour) of the house but the spa look OK. Bit public for me though!

Allan.

Hmmm, not sure what's happening, but this morning advanced rendering is working. It is possible I never tried advanced rendering on this model before. You were correct, adding a little light, a window and allowing daylight helped with the basic model.  It's still a little dark, but I'll play with that. I'll come back if there are any further problems.