New wall element

[peterbennett]

Hi

1. Is it possible to create a bespoke wall element?  Here I am thinking UK cavity wall so all the sizes and gaps and materials are automatically correct, i.e. without having to alter an exisiting wall. If this is possible has anybody posted the method?

2. When it comes to locations do people normally think of joists in space between ceiling height and height of ground floor wall, or beneath floor of second floor location. Are joists and insulation ever drawn in TFP?

Cheers

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Peter,

The cavity walls I sent in the BIM files in a previous post contain the various elements autonmatically but you cannot edit anything internally except the thickness of the inside section (and hence the total thickness) and the internal makeup of the internal section (eg concrete or size of timber or steel studs etc). To do this you change the Core thickness and then Framing allows you to specify what makes up the interior of the inner wall. 

If you make these changes in  a new element in your walls Catalogue then you can use them repeatedly in future projects. (Right click on a wall in the catalogue 'tree' and select Add element).

To edit the exterior section of the wall (e.g. Thickness or cavity depth) you need Envisioneer. If you can't get close to what, you could download a trial version of Envisioneer, adjust all the settings and export as a BIM to import into TFP. The trial lasts 30 days. 

Not sure I quite follow your second question specifically, so just some info about Locations that may answer the question. 

By default the ground floor has a 300 mm (1') floor that is timber but the timber frame is turned off in the View Filter. The default Second floor likewise has the same floor that sits on top of the walls. If you add other floors you need to allow for floor thicknesses when calculating the Floor level of subsequent floors as the Floor Level figure counts from the Terrain (0).

If you go to floor properties you can configure the floor joists. TFP does not specifically cover insulation but you can always add a second, thick ceiling raised a little  to simulate it. It will flow between the joists.

Hope that helps.

Allan

[Beeeno]

Observations from a complete non-expert! Me... I have only worked with program 2 days, but all of 1 day was trying to deal with Wall Elements. Whoever cut down this program decided to leave out much customisation of wall elements, things which will determine final sizes of build, and hence whether things will fit in rooms, whether the building will fit the plot/space, whether ideas will conform to UK Building Regs etc, .....but will allow you many choices of door sill thickness! There may appear to be lots of options, but not for wall thicknesses, construction, or type.
Given the differences in building construction practices in UK with USA and AUS, and importance of thermal insulation etc in UK Regs where cavities/airspaces in walls are now very large, and additional insulation now used on surfaces of walls, with cladding etc, it is a pity these adjustments have been overlooked/cut out of the program.
In the end I set up my own categories of walls. Ignored all that is provided, except as basis for modification! As far as my experiments show there appear to be 3 basic wall formats in all the titles listed. No amount of fiddling with lines, materials, or any options etc makes any difference to the finished wall thicknesses seen on plan. Only what you enter in the Core width.
The element options provided, concrete/masonry/girt etc also make no difference to amending any of the 3 basic wall formats on plan. (They may do in section, or frame view, but not on plan). The option for 'framed' makes a difference by activating the frame option button where you can choose frame options, but that does not alter the plan view or resulting wall size.
One wall option I called 'Solid Walls', where you get 2 lines (or infilled block) on 2D plan, regardless of any other settings. If you want infill make sure setting is ticked in Program Settings, as ticking/enabling infill in element setting will not work until you do.
The next category I called 'Clad Walls' where you get a 'core' internal wall with an outer facing attached. This external facing only exposes itself on completing enclosure of a space. This automatic addition messes up any sizes you were working to. On all my trials this added 95.25mm to the wall thickness, and hence twice this to a wall length. I have found no setting to adjust this facing thickness. Best to just draw a roughly sized shape then click on adjacent wall to activate dimensions, click on external dimension and manually enter size in menu. Wall length will adjust to what you require and include the facings.
The next category I called 'Cavity Walls' as you get an inner core wall, an airspace/cavity, and the external facing. Just as the facing thickness is fixed, so is the 'airspace'. This appears to be stuck at 25mm with no adjustment.
To change the overall wall thickness you have to modify the core thickness. With external facing, with or without airspace, you need to alter the core thickness to allow for the facings/spaces in order to end up with the total thickness you want. And the drawing will be accurate in wall size but only a rough representation in terms of artwork.
When creating new elements, right click an existing title and click 'add element', and remember to re-title so no confusion with original. Note that if you right click the category headings and click 'add element' the menu for the last element you used will open. So you may end up modifying a different wall format than intended for that category. E.g. a 'foundation wall' as an 'exterior wall'.
My best workaround with this program where true sections and stud drawings are not required, would be to ignore all above. and just use solid walls format throughout. Set up to various widths to suit differing construction, and use infill colours to represent each differing construction. Then put a key on the drawing to specify the construction of the ones used.

Hope this helps. I am very happy to be shot out of sky on what I have said, since I have read 'help', user manuals, tutorials etc and find little detailed help on the subject, I have had to find my own way by experiment.
cheers
Brian Nolan

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Brian - and welcome to the forum!

Basically you have summed it up nicely, so I don't think you will find anyone 'shooting you out of the sky'.

What we have to remember is the TFP is intended as the replacement of Floorplan 3D V11 (which is why it started off as V12) but with a totally different code base. FP3D was purely a visualisation tool and TFP is intended as the same.  Yes it will draw plans but largely for the purpose of building the 3D model to provide the visualisation. This is why it does not have elaborate printing facilities other than the plan or elevation as you display it on the screen. It is not intended as a tool that can be used commercially to generate building plans, otherwise it would compete with it's parent Envisioneer, that is built and marketed by CADsoft not IMSI. Almost total flexibility within walls and everthing, is available in Envisioneer, but at about 16 times the price and it is intended for, and used for, commercial purposes.

This is why we have limitations.  Most of the flexibility we have in TFP is for the purpose of visualisation, hence the total thinkness of the wall is possible but not its internal components, except the Core which is the basis of the interior wall - a frame with Gyprock each side.  When it forms a room it adds the exterior veneer,  if you are using a veneer wall, which is why your way of drawing the walls roughly and drag to size, is the best way to do it.

We may get gradual improvements in these things in later versions but it obviously cannot go to the point of undermining the parent product, especially at such a low price. If Envisioneer progresses dramatically in other ways, then maybe we will get those capabilities, but while it is a visualisation tool, not a plan drawing/printing tool, then really they could reason "what does the inside of the wall matter, as you cannot see it in 3D", which is true.

This is not to say that you cannot stretch the use of TFP, and plan printing is possible (eg http://forums.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,877.0.html), but it is not really what it istended for. I think your suggestion of colour coding the walls is probably a good idea that would be adequate in many situations.

There are of course the simple line drawing tools too that can be used to enhance the automatic plans. I also doubt whether many building survey people would be measuring the depth of the cavity on the actualy drawing to see if has been drawn to the exact thickness, if the text on the plan states its dimension, what it was filled with and that it will be built to comply with code number XXXX.  That is all the builing regulation people in Australia require - but could be quite different where you are of course.

Allan

[Voodooman]

Hi

this perceived problem of cavity walls is something of a chocolate teapot.

I dont use TFP myself although I was an avid user of FP11.  I drop by the forum every now and then for my own interest.

TFP is USA orientated where cavity walls are not the norm.  Indeed they are not much in evidence in Europe where mono wall is becoming increasingly used.

For the UK there is no requirement in the drawings for either planning or building regs to show wall construction, its enough to indicate in text the wall construction. either in a seperate document or call outs.

In any case for working drawings you can simply add the detail in 2D if you want.

Your suggestion that wall thicknesses have increased is slightly adrift I think. The gap is reduced by the insertion of insulation between the walls. The overall gap remains the same at 125mm. The reason for the 125mm in the first place was to reduce the risk of bridging with snotters (lumps of cement) which inevitably fall in the gap during construction or during brick/block laying.  Traditionally it was a nominal 4" but the gap is no concern of any building inspector.  Insulation + an air gap improves the insulation.  25mm or 50mm makes no difference to the u value as far as I know.

Regards


Peter

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Peter,

Nice to hear from you again. I was hoping you would drop in on  this one as I did not want to comment too much on drawings and regulations in case they were slacker in Australia. It seems they are similar.  Here, as long as the comments are there to say this is a cavity wall with insulation to Australian Standard 12345 etc that is all that is required.

Obviously Australia, and especially Western Australia, are quite different to the US and the trend in Europe, as probably 99% of new homes here are cavity walls, usually double brick with a 50 mm (2'') cavity, or brick exterior and steel or timber frame interior side with insulation and plasterboard. This is specified in the text description. Interestingly there is a customised Australian catalogue for TFP and Envisioneer that recognises this, as it has a whole separate group just for cavity walls. In Envisioneer of course you can adjust these cavity settings but not in TFP but they are set to Australian standards anyway.

TFP's ability to show the inner wall detail is only used in close up sections of wall/footing detail for example.

Generally the team I work with (doing visuals) find it best to speak to the local building authority for the project we are working on beforehand to find out the detail they require, so we get them 'onside' from the start by seeking their advice. These are public buildings (churches) so the regulations are stricter.

Allan

[Voodooman]

Hi Allan

I drive by the forum most days and read your posts. 

I love your renders but in all honesty I dont have the time to do much rendering myself.  My projects just dont warrant the effort.

This issue of cavity walls used to bother me until I had software that does cavity walls.  Once I had it, I then realised that it is not of any big value!

It is supposed to be summer here in the UK and we are supposed to be having a walled garden/courtyard built at our home. The design is done, the garden is cleared, the foundations are dug and now due to persistent heavy rain our garden looks like a worl war one battlefield - mud everywhere, waterfilled trenches criss crossing the garden.

The builder is elusive but there is little he can do with the weather being so bad.

Best wishes

Peter

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Peter,

I can imagine how you must feel about the weather situation.

We tend to have the opposite problem - no rain. We have have had some in the last few weeks but until then we went for 6 months without any! Builders here walk off the job because of the heat. Generally they stop at the 38 (old 100) but it even gets to 48 (116) occasionally - hence all the fires we get (1000+ homes and 200+ lives lost last summer). 

Our cavity walls and insulation are mainly about keeping the heat out not in.

Unfortunately each summer seems to get worse with ever tighter water restrictions. This year the restrictions have remained in place through winter too. Some places have total garden watering bans, time limits on showers, no car washing etc.   Maybe you could send some of your surplus and we can send you some sun! Mid winter here and the temperatures are in the mid 20's even now. My wife cant stand it- wants me to move back to the UK!

Hope things start to improve for you soon.
Allan