Error opening 3ds files with Turbocad

[George Smith]

I can't seem to get this to work. Every time I export a file (even a simple straight wall) from TFP to .3ds, it won't open in Turbocad.

I don't know where the problem lies, but I have a feeling it's in TFP, because Turbocad will save files as 3ds and reopen them or bring them into TFP just fine.

Does anyone else have this problem?

[Draft Patrick]

Hi George,

It works OK for me.
What happens when you try to import the 3DS file? empty screen? crash?
Did you check the layers' colors in Turbocad? If you get an empty screen in TC, did you try Edit--> Select all?

Let us know 

Pat

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Pat and George,

I tried this just out of interest, as I rarely use TurboCAD (Too technical for my aging brain!! - and no time to learn it!!) and I had mixed results.  Most I tried opened OK but a few didn't, giving a message "unexpoected end of file".  The same objects import back into TFP OK.

Was that the same message you got George?

Allan

[George Smith]

Pat thanks.
It works fine for you? That's good news- maybe I can narrow it down then- with help.

Allan, yes, that's what happens.  I get a pop-up that says "Failed to open...Unexpected End of File".  That's it- it doesn't even act like it will open it, just a blank dark gray screen with no file open.

I'm using TFP v14 build 624, and Turbocad v14.2.

Perhaps someone else would try to open on of my TFP 3ds files. That would narrow down which program is causing the problem.  And again, Has anyone else ever had this problem, or has it always worked for you?

Thanks
George

[Draft Patrick]

Hi George and Allan

I have Turbocad 15.2 and I opened the 3DS file without problems (see attached)

In order to narrow the problem I did small "magic"  in your file, can you try to open the 3DS attached?

Pat

[George Smith]

Pat,

Thanks.
Yes, your magic tricks worked.  I am able to open it after you modified it.
-what's your secret
-any ideas why it would open with v15 and not v14?  I will probably submit a ticket to IMSI TC support, but it takes forever to get any kind of response.

George

[Draft Patrick]

Hi George,

Glad to know it worked!! 

I am not sure that it is a problem with the TCAD version. I used TCAD V14, but it is not installed in my computer now

I found a similar issue working with other programs and some research showed that some file corruption is associated with the generation of 3DS files: when this happens, I use a 3D manipulation program (Rhapsody, is very old) The trick is try to "flat" the file (reducing layers, or polygons,etc. we are simplifying the file, not the shapes) and usually it works, as happened with your file

If you wish, we can do a couple of additional tests: if you wish to attach the original "test_wall" file but in TFP format, I will be glad to test it in my computer

Pat

[George Smith]

Thanks Pat.

I never saved the original file in TFP format, but here's an even simpler example- no terrain, just 4 walls.
I can open it in TFP, export it as dxf, and TC opens it just fine.
If I export it as 3ds, TC chokes on it.

[Draft Patrick]

George,

You are welcome!

Before further tests... I just noticed something: you are using TFP version 624. There is an update to version 662 http://forums.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,963.msg4811.html#new
Perhaps is a good idea if you download and install the update and after, you try to export to 3DS. I don't think that this is the problem, but lets solve the issues in order 

Pat

[Allan Chesney]

Hi George,

Pat's suggestion is probably a good approach but, before upgrading to 662, if you are using the Worksheets, as I think you are, you may want to read this post: http://forums.turbofloorplan.com/index.php/topic,852.0.html. If you are not then the upgrade is certainly recommended.

In view of Pat's comments about modifying the 3DS file ("The trick is try to "flat" the file (reducing layers, or polygons,etc. we are simplifying the file, not the shapes) and usually it works")  I thought I would try the Simplify tool in TFP. First I first tried opening your latest file in TC and it failed, so I imported it into TFP, used the Simplify option on the imported 3DS 'walls' (just moved the slider to 95%) and exported it again as a 3DS. TC imported the new 3DS without a problem. Somehow the Simplify tool must modify the file in a similar way to what Pat described - it worked on that one anyway with no obvious deterioration of the object that I could see.

Pat,  
Can you 'demystify' the TFP Simplify options?  I can guess what they do, but if you can put it into simple words (for my simple brain!) it would be be a better option!  I know you can delete part of the object (eg in this file the floor, baseboards etc) using the Display options but what is the difference between the 'Number of Vertices in Object', 'Minimum Number of Vertices in Component' and the 'Percentage of Simplification'? Is Percentage just a random compromise - (eg you take pot luck at what dissappears)?  Which is best to adjust to have the least visible degredatrion of the object but still simplify it?

Allan

[George Smith]

Allan,
Thanks for the heads up.  Yesterday I decided to forget about the ability to use Worksheets (that was inadvertently included with TFP out of the box) for a few reasons: they don't work perfectly at all, lots of glitches with the view manager, etc.  And the worksheets aren't dynamic anyway I can do the same thing in Turbocad.  Also I was tired of dealing with little issues/bugs with the rest of the program and not knowing if they were corrected with the update. I installed the 662 update yesterday.

Unfortunately, it did nothing to correct the issue in this thread (3ds files).
And it caused some new problems:
1.  I think I got the UK update version. Now everything is spelled wrong (to me in the US).  Anybody know anything about that?
2.  Upon updating, it saved all the new files in different locations (the default). Now I have to go through all the settings & correct them, plus I have to move files from different locations, etc.  Why in the world didn't the update ask for these locations???  Seems to me that 217mb (size of update) is plenty big enough to have included these couple of items.
3.  Upon updating, I got a new Master Catalog.  Obviously I will revert to my customized Master Catalog.  Question: did they fix/change anything in the Master Catalog with this update?

Thanks
George

[Draft Patrick]

Pat,  
Can you 'demystify' the TFP Simplify options?  I can guess what they do, but if you can put it into simple words (for my simple brain!) it would be be a better option!

Allan,

Don't worry, my knowledge about this is not very sophisticated !!!

OK, the explanation for this issue is not complicated, but I am attaching two images for a better visualization using an example
But first, try to imagine that you need to develop a circle, using only straight lines--> you will use short traces to make the perimeter look curved, right?. Now, imagine the same situation but using a ball and triangles or polygons--> if the triangles are smaller, the ball will look more curved, soft. But in exchange you will have more polygons and vertices. Therefore, the rendering time goes to the space  

In the images attached you can see this clearly--> The set called Simplify 2 shows the wireframe view of the same object (a bed): the upper image is the object with all the polygons (5156) and colors. The image in the bottom shows the same object with a "dramatic" polygon reduction of 90%  and only one layer--> you can see the difference in the polygons size looking at the sides of the bed
The set called Simplify 1 shows the same objects rendered--> the objects is the same, there are not parts missing, but the quality is different and there are not curves (almost)
The size of the first object is 281 KB and the second is 45KB

So answering your question, the Simplify feature is a compromise between size and quality, but I don't think that parts (like baseboards, for example) will disappear

An additional comment (and a warning): the Sketch up polygons are and work a little differently, so is not uncommon that, trying to reduce the polygons, some of them will "disappear" and the object will show holes or, sometimes, black polygons (and color can't be modified)

Not sure if this explanation answers your question?   Let me know

Pat

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Pat,

Yes it sort of answers the question although I basically undertood the concept. The concern was whether the symplification was achieved by deleting polygons and hence creating holes so you have reassured me on that - Thanks! The baseboards etc can be deleted, or at least turned off, on the Display tab. I don't use SKP items so I dont have to worry about that.

Hi George,

Yes the Worksheets did have some issues as the Envisioneer file was not fully compatable. Incidentally the latest version  (6) does do live updates of the Worksheets. 

Sorry, I dont know anything about the UK version, wish I did as I am stuck with US spelling! Maybe we can swap?

When I updated I did not have any problem with file locations but I always use the default anyway.

As far as I know, nothing was changed in the catalogue. I am still using my customised one too.

Does the Symplify option on the 3DS file not fix the problem for you like it did for me?

Allan

[George Smith]

Allan,
I've never used Simplify before. 
Is this the correct workflow:  Draw a model > export as 3ds > import, object wizard > insert object back into TFP empty project > select object, go to properties, simplify > choose a percent, apply > export 3d object as 3ds file > go to TC and open new project with that file ?

If so, that's a long way around.

I tried it at 100% and 60% and it still won't open in TC.  Am I doing something wrong, and does the % matter?  Would you post your 3ds test file before & after simplification?

Thanks
George

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Geogre,

I agree it is a long way around. Actually all I did was to import your second wall directly in to the catalogue (not via the wizard) and adjusted the Simplify during the import. I set it to 95% and it worked when re exported and opened in TC.

Just curious why you are exporting them to TC - is it to make further alterations to it? 
If you still have problems you may find that TC will accept a DXF export more readily than 3DS.

I have attached my 95% 3DS as requested.

Allan