Help needed to create a dormer roof of 3/12 from ridge to fascia

[Kajvin - Robert W]

Hi Allan! I have a connection with the forum from my home computer now it look like the IT-staff on IMSIDesign have solve the problem , why I been look out,a great thanks IT-staff and suport , I will now, hopefully, have connection with IMSIDesign and the forum.  
So now if you not already have solve the problem I will take a look to. I will check out what I have missed now.

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Robert,

Glad to hear you are up and running again!!!

Allan

[Kajvin - Robert W]

Hi Allan and Joe! To use a skylight you need to have a cathedral roof if it shall look good. I have attach a sample bld of a box with 2 floors, wall height on  2nd floor is 1000 mm, I have set the roofs support height too 1000 mm, then set the ceiling to cathedral Skirth width to 0 mm for both the straight and gable and for the straight part of the ceiling slope angle 30 deg, same slope as the roof. I have to set the elevation to 1000 mm for the ceiling.

Attach the skylight to the roof, the select the ceiling and cut opening around the skylight.

The content is then you use a skylight use a cathedral ceiling and proper angles for the slope.

hope this will help / Robert

[joeyg1973]

Hi Joe,

Last thing first - the awning can be just a surface or you can use a roof (on it's own Location so it does not get caught up in the other roof). Set the slope on the front edge and set the other three edges to gable. The roof location should have the walls height set to the height of the roof so it sits at the right height.

The best way with the main roof is probably to do it by drawing the roof 'by Picking Points. This way you can force the ridge to stay in place and use the right click, "Move Edge - Maintain Support Height (if you are 'cutting into the roof') and Adjust Support Height if you are extending the roof. The edge this creates you make into a gable and set the overhang to a small figure so that the facia still shows.

Hopefully the image will show you what I mean.

You can then add the dormers.

Allan

Hi Allen,

I went back and added some windows and stuff then went to put on the roof as you suggested.  If you look at the picture below you can see the issue.  Apparently when I tried this the first time, adjusting the support height while moving the wall caused the back wall to shrink and I didn't notice it when I didn't have the windows.  Well I am getting what you see in the attached picture.  I am also including the bld file too.

[Kajvin - Robert W]

Hi Joe
Have I understand you rigth will the location settings be like this:
Old hous with fundation level 0' only for thev drawing

Fundation =0'                           wall =8'
Grounlevel =0+8'= 9'                 wall=8'
Second floor =0'+8'+9'+1'=18'             wall=0'
--------------------------------------------
Can it be rigth to asume that the fundation of th garage is abut 1,7' below the old foundation
Garage=-1,7'                                    wall  14,2'

2nd floor garage = -1,7'+14,2'+1'=13,5'  wall ?
--------------------------------------------------

This will give 5 diffrent location
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
If this look OK, I can do a outline of your house and roof and floors, but the interior walls etc. have you to do your self.  

I wonder abut the stair up to the room above the garage, is the staircase walls go all the way down to the garage floor
you wrote
SNIP---for the part above the garage which has a floor level of 15' 1 1/2" in order to accommodate an automotive lift in the garage below which has a ceiling height of 14'2" (the default floor width is 11 1/2" which makes sense when you take into account 1/2" drywall ceiling)


the default floor cealing height 11 ,5'??
/Robert

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Joe,

I went back and added some windows and stuff then went to put on the roof as you suggested.  If you look at the picture below you can see the issue.  Apparently when I tried this the first time, adjusting the support height while moving the wall caused the back wall to shrink and I didn't notice it when I didn't have the windows.

This indicates a problem, with the wall height as specified on the Ground Floor Location.

First the walls are protruding through the roof becasue they are at a fixed Level of 8' - they should be set to Extend to Roof. This will cause them to terminate at the roof, as in my image.  The Second Floor wall will have to be moved back as it will protrude also as will the flat ceiling on the Ground Floor.

This obviously still leaves the windows protruding.  Windows automatically insert at the preset Location Head Height.  Either these windows need to be lowered (right click - Elevate) or ALL the walls on the Ground Floor are too low.  As per the questions on the image, these walls are set to 8' but how high are these walls IN REALITY?  If the main wall on the right of my image is really 8' and if the roof pitch is the same, then it follows that the ones on the left (that are extending out from the building) must be lower than 8' and hence the window problem.

I suspect that the walls on the right should be higher (Ground Floor Location setting), maybe 10', then the extended walls will be 8' maybe and the windows will fit. That will have to be determined first also if Robert is going to recreate it for you or he will run into the same issue. As the Locations control all the vertical heights in the model, it is essential that these be correct for everything to fit properly. Changing the Floor Level (Surface of the floor above the Terrain) for a Location, will cause the whole floor to move up or down and the things on that floor, but changing wall height and the other location settings will only affect new walls etc added later - it will not correct existing ones. Right click, Replace, may change wall heights to the new setting,  (or delete and redo them) making sure they are set to Extend to Roof.  

If this wall height setting on the ground floor is the problem (i.e. it should be more than 8'), then it is going to affect the roof too, as it will normally insert at the original wall height.  If you have done a lot of work on the roof, then you may be able to select the edges that are at the original 8' setting and in Properties / Detail and Support, change the Support Height to the new wall height figure.  The Support Height of the roof edge over the extended (reduced) walls will have to separately changed to increase the Support Height accordingly (these walls are now just under 5').  This could be a tricky process so make sure you make a copy before you start!!!

Allan

[joeyg1973]

This indicates a problem, with the wall height as specified on the Ground Floor Location.

As per the questions on the image, these walls are set to 8' but how high are these walls IN REALITY?


Allan

8' from the floor to the ceiling walls throughout the whole ground floor with the exception being the garage as it doesn't have a ground floor, just foundation and second floor.  I just set the walls to fixed to emphasize the problem.

Joe

[joeyg1973]

Hi Joe
Have I understand you rigth will the location settings be like this:
Old hous with fundation level 0' only for thev drawing

Fundation =0'                           wall =8'
Grounlevel =0+8'= 9'                 wall=8'
Second floor =0'+8'+9'+1'=18'             wall=0'
--------------------------------------------
Can it be rigth to asume that the fundation of th garage is abut 1,7' below the old foundation
Garage=-1,7'                                    wall  14,2'

2nd floor garage = -1,7'+14,2'+1'=13,5'  wall ?
--------------------------------------------------

This will give 5 diffrent location
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
If this look OK, I can do a outline of your house and roof and floors, but the interior walls etc. have you to do your self.  

I wonder abut the stair up to the room above the garage, is the staircase walls go all the way down to the garage floor
you wrote
SNIP---for the part above the garage which has a floor level of 15' 1 1/2" in order to accommodate an automotive lift in the garage below which has a ceiling height of 14'2" (the default floor width is 11 1/2" which makes sense when you take into account 1/2" drywall ceiling)


the default floor cealing height 11 ,5'??
/Robert

Robert,  

I so need this help so thank you in advanced!


If the old basement is at 0, the new one is 1'4" lower.  The ceiling on the old basement is rather short, only 6'8" total in height.  I know this because I have banged my head more than once on a door jamb down there.  The floor has buckled over the years so it isn't consistently that hieght.  I know this because I have banged my head more than once on the door jambs down there.  I am 6'2".    The new basement is 8' till you hit the garage at which point it is 14'2".

See the pic attached for what I have for location settings currently.  I went to the house to double check the settings.  The garage part is 15' 1 1/2".  The settings I have in that pic for the second floor are wrong.

The stairs are all 3'6" wide.  Here is what I have for measurements for the ones going to the part above the second floor garage.  The first step on the first floor starts 1' 1/2" foot unlike what I currently have in the drawings I put up as I haven't gotten around to fixing it.  6' 3 1/2" L x 3' 6" W x 5' 8 1/2" H are the measurements I got when I measured them.

8' walls throughout the old and the new house with the exception of the part over the garage which is funky.

The dormer above the garage in the front has a support height above the second floor of 8'4" from the measurements I have taken and is 7'4" wide.  The large one in the front over the house is 4'11 3/4" support height over the ceiling floor and has a width of 15'4".  The flat dormer on the back is 20'8" wide and the support height on that should be the same as the roof ridge.  All of the roof is 8/12 with the exception of the flat dormer on the back which is 3/12.

And to throw another wrench in the works I probably need a location for above the new house excluding the garage as we see a lot of wasted useful space there too.  We are not going to go into this though for a few years at least.

Garage door is 18'x10'.  

I am also including pictures from my current bld that show exactly how the roof on the back looks where the old house meets the new house.  Try as I might, I have always had to convert to surfaces to fine tune it.  

BTW I prefer to have the new basement and garage at 0 because
1) they are on the same level
2) I need to put a garage door on the garage which needs to be level with the ground
3) The terrain editing tools are not intuitive and for me at least seem to work better when I build up rather than cut down.  ISMI should take a look at how ridiculously easy it is to edit terrain in one of the Sim City games.  Select and just pull or push up or down.  Ridiculously easy to use and very intuitive.
4) my house it built into/on a hill with the back part in the ground and facing the house, the left side is also under the ground but is sloped down about 1' from the back and it gradually slopes down to the right till it hits a retaining wall next to the driveway which is 3' and everything from there to the right of the wall is flat.  From the front of the house to the street it keeps the same profile.

Oh yeah 2x10's in the new house basement, with 3/4" plywood as flooring add in 3/4" hardwood floor and you get the 11 1/2" that TFP sets as the default for flooring.  It's the same for floor in the part over the garage.  2x7 (weird size I know but that is what they are, and yes I triple checked that) for the ceiling in the new part of the house.  The old part is a mess there 2x4 for the most part because it was built in 1927 and 2x6 added in to add support and meet code.  Just go with 2x6.

If you need any more info let me know.

Joe

[Kajvin - Robert W]

Hi Joe Thanks let me get a cuple of days so will I be back with a outline of the house.
I have 6 diffrent location 3 for the old house and 2+1 for the garage and dorm.
Why 2+1 for the garage and dorm, to get 2 diffrent typ of walls for the garage we nead to split wall hight 15'-2" in 2 parts conret walls and wood wall, 1 for the dorm

/Robert

[joeyg1973]

Hi Joe Thanks let me get a cuple of days so will I be back with a outline of the house.
I have 6 diffrent location 3 for the old house and 2+1 for the garage and dorm.
Why 2+1 for the garage and dorm, to get 2 diffrent typ of walls for the garage we nead to split wall hight 15'-2" in 2 parts conret walls and wood wall, 1 for the dorm

/Robert

Hi Robert,

You should go back and reread my previous post.  I made some edits to it based on me going over to the house and making some proper measurements.  The walls of the garage are actually 15' 1 1/2"

Joe

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Joe,

I don't want to confuse things with what Robert is doing for you but just a comment on this:

8' from the floor to the ceiling walls throughout the whole ground floor with the exception being the garage as it doesn't have a ground floor, just foundation and second floor.  I just set the walls to fixed to emphasize the problem.

The critical thing is not the ceiling height but the wall height, as the walls are often higher than the ceiling as they support the roof - the ceiling can be anywhere.  However, looking at your latest images it appears you have sorted out the 'windows through the roof' problem.

When I compare your latest image with the earlier photo, it appears there is a second floor in this part of the house too, which gives the extra height to the wall on the gable face.  Really the roof should have been on this second floor Location, which should have walls set to zero (assuming the roof slopes to the floor at some point).  If the window in the gable is in the same room as the door below, with a cathedral ceiling, then that is a different matter of course. Gets complicated doesn't it trying to convey the whole thing with just words and images?

Anyway I assume Robert will sort that out with you.

By the way, re the Terrain tool: Rumour has it that this is gettting a makeover, so hopefully will become easier.  I agree with you that it is not very intuitive, although it is not too bad once you get used to how it works.  I have found that the easiest way is to use the Plateau tool and build it up gradually. However that is another story - worry about that later in a different post if you want to.

Hi Robert, 

I thought of undertaking what you have proposed but I am going to be pressed for time I suspect over the next few days or weeks.  My father-in-law has just passed away, so it looks like we will be heading to the other side of the country (1,500 miles) for the funeral and to help sort things out. We also have our hous up for sale so that is adding extra complications.

Re Joe's garage: Unless a construction materials list was a requirement (which I assume isn't as the house exists already), it may be less confusing and easier, to just use a single location for the garage walls and use the Wainscot Trim tool on the walls to get the separate construction material appearance since that is really its purpose. This can be applied to Interior and Exterior surfaces, with wall Breaks to get the different heights (I seem to recall that the construction type is stepped, so separate locations would not really do it anyway).

Allan

[Kajvin - Robert W]

Hi Joe, I missed the new measurement of the wall height in garage, but it don't change that it needs 3 location for the garage, and I use floor level at -2' (-24"). What I have done now is the outline of the house, and put on the roof.

Hi Allan, sorry for your loss. You shall a safe trip and we will see you then you is back. Thanks for the tip.

/Robert

[Allan Chesney]

Thanks Robert,

I should still be able to keep in touch with the forum with my phone (and laptop at times) depending on what is happening, but will not have as much time obviously.

Allan

[joeyg1973]

Allan,

I am sorry to hear of your loss as well.

Your pictures with the cut showing that I should have a location for the second floor cleared things right up.  That spot above that looks like a dormer with a small window is the original attic space on the old house.  I suspect that the window was put in up there a few decades ago and someone was using that area as a bedroom as there was evidence of that from when we cleaned that part out.  That space is now less than 1/3 of the original as we converted the front 2/3 of the old house to cathedral ceilings over a great room.

Joe

[Allan Chesney]

Thanks Joe for your concern too,

Yes, some of these older houses can be quite tricky getting all the levels set properly, as you are discovering.  Makes it harder still when you are not there to see exactly what is going on.  Even when you are there it can be hard too, as you sometimes do not know where 'cavities' exist between room walls, floors and ceilings, until you find that interior dimensions to not add up to the outside ones!!  The older the place the worse that sort of thing becomes I think.

So it looks like you need at least three locations in both parts of the building, although some are at different levels in the new part from the old.  I am sure Robert will be able to sort it out - maybe with the help of you and your tape measure!!

All the best with it.

Allan