wrong mirror reflections

[Doug.S]

I've not run into this before....wondering if anyone has and if knows why or how to fix?

See attached image....reflections in mirror of sliding doors on left....partially correct, but...

- lower mirror of curved tile flooring has wall pics reflected = wrong!

- upper mirror of ceiling has wall pics overlaid = wrong!

- pics reflected on mirror doors lost images, unlike wall & ceiling which are OK = wrong!

rendered @ advanced+raytrace @ 5(max)/1500, 800x600, no sun (interiror view), brightness = -1.0  (TFP 15.0.c2.770)

[Doug.S]

remembered a long time back that maybe a small movement of camera can fix things....so moved back a bit...

wow,,,,fixed reflections but ceiling is black


will try more; maybe will be successful???

EDIT:

I was able to fix the black ceiling by ensuring the whole building had a roof and all outside doors were then enclosed by walls (no openings to "outside") and the camera was no too close to a wall or door,

But the reflections are still always wrong at the narrow angle of camera view (not FoV but angle near same plane as mirror)....for a camera position looking more normal to the mirror surfaces, the reflection seems correct, but the pictures are very dark compared to their brightness on the wall)

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Doug,

I found this one intriguing, especially the fix for the black ceiling! This happens from time to time for different users and I have never been able to find a common cause - looks like you have identified some things to look for.

Also curious about the dark images - they were fine in the first one.  Was anything changed in the render for the second? I would not mind being able to play with this one myself (if you don't mind emailing the file) but it may not be practical as your images would not be on my PC, so I would end up with grey squares. Are they images or photoboards? Does it do the same thing with the standard catalogue pictures?

Allan

[Doug.S]

can maybe send you the .bld file....but its on my desktop (I'm on laptop now)....so maybe later

Images on wall are photoboards imported from .jpg photo pics of art....but may travel along with the .bld file?...because they were not in my catalog until I added them later.

Have not tried (but will try) TFP built-in photoboard or picture images.

I'll also try some other camera angles...so far other angles (not showing the pics) rendered the tile floor OK and the ceiling OK...very odd that "extra" photoboard pics are duplicated in the mirror.

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Doug,

I don't think the photoboards will transport - they are only linked on the PC.  You can edit the original photoboard image on your PC and the next time you open TFP it will show the edited image.  If you rename or relocate the original image ,it will dissappear from TFP and you will just get a rectangle. This is handy in a couple of way, first the editing without re-inserting it and second it means you can use some very large, high resolution images, without it blowing out the size of the bld file.

I think if you add the images to picture frames in the catalogue, you may get better results, as they go into the catalogue materials list and should render, and reflect, like any other texture.

As you said the "extra" reflection images is very odd.

Allan

[Doug.S]

Allan, I think you are on the right track, and I think this is a bug in the program.

See these test results and the attached .bld file for your use and for IMSI to analyse and find the bug.

Test1c = view from a new camera at different angle...shows all the same issues; so its not the camera or its position.

Test2p = replacing the photoboard inserted with my .jpg picture with a picture from TFP catalog pictures = same results

Test3pb = insert TFP std. photoboard (flag) which renders OK and tries to fix the duplicate reflections on floor and ceiling. Also note my .jpg pics on left are much brighter....I don't think its from light reflecting off the back of the flags. I had to make the imported pics a bit dark as they were rendering very bright and washed out if they looked like a normal image brightness.

I put my pictures into the TFP catalog, saved, closed TFP, restarted, rendered....and same issue....so its not the catalog or pointing to a file...its the use of an inserted photoboard based on an imported image.....that's the bug!!!!!

See if you can place any images of your own on my inserted photo boards on the wall and even maybe try changing the image of the flag.

I tried applying an imported picture to a mirror (replacing mirror with .jpg) as that is how I used to do pictures on a wall in earlier versions....but TFP15 won't seem to let me size or position ("map") correctly to the shape.  Tried same with a flattened "cube"....but same "mapping" issues.

What is your approach (that works) to put your own picture images on a wall??

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Doug,

I have not had time to test the file yet as we are moving house at present so things are a bit rushed.  I will have a look at it as soon as I can.

All I do to use my own pictures is to right click 'Add' a Picture Frame in Interior Accessories / Decorative. You can set the frame and depth to just 1mm if you do not want a frame as such. I have never had any issue inserting images this way and they always seem to render OK with normal brightness.

It will be interesting to have a play with this - the odd reflections are intriguing.

Allan

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Doug,

Have done a quick render and got some doubling up in the reflection of the original photoboard place holders (no image came across) but my own photoboard (shrub) and picture frames all seemed to reflect in the rendering without any problems.

Allan

[Doug.S]

Getting closer to the issue and the work-around solution...see these tests:

test4m = (deleted one flag) replaced the top center picture that was a photoboard working wrong, to a "member" resized and front wood replaced with a .jpg picture -- results are fine for that picture, including the fact that it did not need to be reduced in brightness to render OK....unlike the one on the left which was darkened a lot otherwise it was washed-out bright (imported pic as a photoboard).

test5pbf = replaced the flag picture (its a std photoboard) with the same picture (not resized; ignore the hxw ratio) as in 4m; renders much like the other photoboards; too bright and black reflection and "extra" reflections (I moved it against the wall to get same lighting as picture next to it)

test6 - - = removed all the pictures except the flag photoboard converted to picture and member with picture instead of wood texture/material. Voila it still renders bright and reflects wrong but the "member" object renders OK.  Also noted that with other pictures gone, the flag now with picture, rendered better for brightness.

I tried using a picture frame and replacing the picture....but then had to make the frames and matte as transparent because I don't use either. Tried a mirror again like I did in other previous TFP versions, but still could not get it to map correctly (tried all combos).

CONCLUSIONS:

There is a bug trying to use .jpg images on photoboards - does not render correctly for brightness and does not reflect correctly and adds extra incorrect reflections.  Although original catalog photoboard pictures work OK, changing the applied image will destroy the render results.

Work- around is to use a "member" and apply picture to the front face and re-size as needed.  SO I'll make a member object saved to catalog to use in the future....and go back to my project and replace all with members with .jpg pics (std look; i.e. not darkened) and try the scene again and will expect it to render OK.....and will report back in a few days when done.

PS I found one other interesting result....radiosity renders were reasonably fast (3 minutes on a single core P4) and were as fast or faster overall than just a std. raytrace render. The raytrace render just plugged along slowly unlike in previous versions on this same PC. (cannot use video card accel. for rendering, it hangs on the cursor flashing....but HA runs OK for modelling)

[Doug.S]

My hunch for work-around fix works just fine.

See pic below, replaced all wall pics with "member" with the same .jpg pics  (except one was changed; new design, but similar .jpg) applied on front replacing wood for material.

Brightness was fine, reflections all OK in render.

So I'm moving on....but the findings may be very useful to others if they see same or similar problems.

Thanks Allan for the lead to check photoboards!

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Doug,

Just a couple of thoughts on your previous post

I tried using a picture frame and replacing the picture....but then had to make the frames and matte as transparent because I don't use either. Tried a mirror again like I did in other previous TFP versions, but still could not get it to map correctly (tried all combos).

You can use the Picture Frame without a frame by setting the frame thickness to 1mm (or fraction of an inch) and the matte can be set to zero, so neither will show.

There is a bug trying to use .jpg images on photoboards - does not render correctly for brightness and does not reflect correctly and adds extra incorrect reflections.  Although original catalog photoboard pictures work OK, changing the applied image will destroy the render results.

I think you will find that all the photoboards used in TFP are actually BMP files not JPG. Photoboards are generally only used to provide a 'cut out' image (e.g  the flag and plants)  rather than for rectangular images. As in the flag and other TFP photoboards, you obviously do not want to see the rectangle around the object itself so it is set to Magenta which as you know becomes transparent.  These have to be BMP as a JPG does not reproduce the true Magenta colour consistently, so you end up with a pink fringe around the flag, plant etc where the JPG pixels have changed the Magenta slightly. This typical 'failing' in JPG's means that they cannot be used for Photoboard cutouts, although JPGs are fine in picture frames or as textures on other surfaces.

Allan

[Doug.S]

snip...These have to be BMP as a JPG does not reproduce the true Magenta colour consistently, so you end up with a pink fringe around the flag, plant etc where the JPG pixels have changed the Magenta slightly. This typical 'failing' in JPG's means that they cannot be used for Photoboard cutouts, although JPGs are fine in picture frames or as textures on other surfaces.

Allan

Yes I'm well aware of the magenta "leak" issue trying to use a .jpg instead of .bmp for transparency....but in this case magenta was not an issue as I was using rectangular images with no magenta and no attempt to have any transparency.....so it would seem photoboards would use .jpg files OK for simple pictures on a wall (they are usually much smaller files).....but apparently photoboards have other than transparency issues with .jpg even tho these are very std file formats.

Thanks for the added tip for using picture frames with zero or very narrow "surrounds"...that may work well too.  Members have the ability to also tilt the pictures outward a bit much like real pictures on a wall....especially for highly reflective "glass" over the picture to more closely simulate real world.

[Doug.S]

Wow, another new issue, somewhat mentioned before....for the test.bld file above....except all wall pics now each as "member"...attached (after deleting and repair per EDIT below)

I mentioned earlier that just doing a raytrace basic render (not doing radiosity) was running very slow....I just stopped it because radiosity renders were faster...odd but not important as radiosity renders were desired....on my 6 yr old desktop; XP.

So, I just installed TFP15 (most recent/same version) on my new laptop...win7.

Tried comparison renders...tho with no .jpg files on the members on the wall....they just render white which seems OK.  Happy new laptop is 3x faster and runs OK (uses HA on just fine).

But then tried a basic raytrace only render and every time it freezes at line 6 or 8...locks up, have to have windows close the program.

So tried a TFP wizard 1 room house design, exterior view, sun on, and it renders just fine for both basic or with radiosity.


Any ideas or tests to make to see what crashes TFP on the test.bld file?  Does your PC render as basic OK?  Hmmm maybe I'll try with .jpgs showing or try without any pictures as a test.

EDIT: deleted all wall pics, did a file repair (it changed the carpeted floor to wood) and tried basic render and it still crashes at line 6....does create a cstmp.tga file which I can open and it shows only the rendered top serveral lines.

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Doug,

The point I was making in the previous post re Photoboards using BMP files was that I suspect photoboards are only intended for situations that require transparency. All the photoboards included in TFP are all 'cutouts' using transparency and of course all the plants/ trees are too which is why they are also rotatable (billboard) so they always face the camera and hence give the illusion of being three dimensional.  For rectangular shapes the normal Texture process works (with JPG or BMP of course).  Whether a JPG or BMP is used for a texture does not matter as far as file size is concerned as they are not saved with the BLD file - just linked from the hard drive.  If you edit an image on your hard drive it will change in TFP next time you restart it, which can be very handy - much easier then bringing an edited texture in again and reassigning it everywhere!!

I like your idea of using the Custom Member for a picture frame. I had not thought about the fact that it can be angled as framed pictures normally are so it is ideal. If a frame is needed on the picutre it is a simple matter to add it to the image itself. Great idea!

I tried rendering your latest BLD file in Advanced and Basic and both worked. When I say that Basic render worked, I mean it did not crash(!) but the image is useless as you can see - totally overexposed.  Like yours it took much longer.  Radiosity took a couple of seconds under 2 minutes while Basic took over 10 minutes.  I have noticed that in V 15 that Advanced is much quicker than it used to be and Basic much slower - no idea why. I have also noticed the tendency to overexpose on Basic with internal lighting - it is OK for external views however. 

Interior walls were changed in V15 to render better using Advanced and I just wonder whether this is where the overexposure on Basic was introduced. I can't think of a reason why yours is crashing though using Basic as it does complete for me. I am also using Win7 on a laptop but I am using V15.1 although I am not aware of any updates in that area of the program. Something however must have changed as I tried it on V15.0 on my wife's laptop (also Win7) and, while Basic did not crash, it finished instantly and did not produce an image. I did the File / Repair on both laptops and it did change the floor back to the original but did not affect the Basic render on either. I then gradually deleted everthing doing a basic render in between but just got a totally white render in a split second and no file created. Whne nothing was left it renderedthe terrain and backgrouns in Basic but the terrain was black and the sun was on.   Conclusion - it looks like 15.1 does do something in this area as the Basic render does complete, even if it is overexposed.

Allan

[Doug.S]

Thanks for your exploring the .bld file renders.   Since I almost always only do radiosity renders I'm not too concerned...but like to do basic renders for checking simple things fast.

And looks like it might be this particular .bld file....maybe I have a bad wall or something else odd.  Not going to worry about it for now.


But....I'm running v 15.01 (15.0.C2.770)....is there a 15.1 newer version available for download?  and is it worth the effort?  (I'll look for it)