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V15 Indoor render to verify type and quantity of lights - feasable?
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* August 02, 2011, 03:46:30 PM
#15
Hi All,

Allan, Thanks for the complements.   Its been a process.... and like I've said, your tips and tricks have helped along the way.   I've redone the lights to generic bulbs and now I'm just fussing with multiple bulbs on the recessed cans that reflect near a wall to give a similar flare to the recessed can types....   A bit more model editing around the lot and some more exterior lights before I go for final renders....

Doug,  Thanks for your tips on speeding up a render.  I will try that.  Currently, outdoor renders work OK on basic, but advanced seems to boog down into days instead of hours.  I wanted to get an indoor rendor during daylight, with the morning sun timed to light up the family room through the dormers.  I could get the basic render, but advanced render ran, just at a few steps an hour... so I abandoned it.  I'll try a gutted model for that an test it again...  Thanks,

Dave

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Dave
TFP pro 16.0.C1.901


* August 02, 2011, 10:04:25 PM
#16
Dave,

As Doug mentioned if you can reduce the objects in the view it will speed render times, sometime quite dramatically.  Outbuildings for example should be on a different location and you can then just turn them off in the View Filter if they are not in the sight of the camera.  Similarly you can turn off furniture and other objects (for all locations or just some of them) in the View Filter if they are not in the scene. For exterior renders just use the filter to turn off all Interior Lighting.  Filtering out objects like this for specific renders may eliminate the need to delete them.

I could get the basic render, but advanced render ran, just at a few steps an hour... so I abandoned it. 
This comment is a bit worrying - it should not take that long unless you have an ultra slow PC or there is a corruption somewhere in the model. Even some of my very large models render in less than an hour. I think Doug alluded to this earlier when we were discussing the render that was affected by the connecting walls. The connecting walls was the issue there but there could still be another issue (with a wall usually) somewhere else.  Have you used the File/Repair Project?  This will sometimes find a corruption and delete it (but not always unfortunately).  If it does not help examine all the wall joins, select them and look for stray bits sticking out or odd shaped segments inside the wall joins. Walls should connect with simple mitre joins - if there are lots of bits and pieces in the join area (must select the area to see them) then redo the join so it is clean.

Back to rendeRing:
Don't forget too that you only need to do the Advanced render once!  It renders the whole model, so all you have to do then is to reposition the camera in the 'rendered' view window (select Modify Viewpoint) and you can then walk around the model and just click the Raytrace button again to take a new 'photo'. It will then render ultra quick, just adding reflections to the radiosity scene. You can then just reposition the camera again and do another Raytrace and so on. 

You can also click the Radiosity check box and move around through the model with all the lights on, to look for the best spots to do the next view.  You can also change camera position using the drop down list (at the top) to go to previously set viewpoints. Unfortunately you cannot save the full Radiosity model which is a shame as it is ideal for viewing the model in more realistic light. Once you close the rendered view window you lose the radiosity model and you will have to do a full render again.

REMINDER:  When doing the Modify Viewpoint and Ratrace again don't forget to click options and change the file name or it will overwrite the previously saved image!

Rendering with daylight can be an issue as mentioned earlier, but you can get a daylight effect by positioning a light outside your windows to represent the sun shining in. You can sometimes get away with using Exterior Lights (eg Street Lights) without it affecting your interior lighting. Also the background image will always show, even if you do not have daylight enabled, so if windows are visible in the view the outside scene will still render even though daylight is off. You do not need to set it to a night scene.

Hope those thoughts help.

Allan

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Allan Chesney,
Kalamunda, Perth, Western Australia
www.alchesdesigns.iinet.net.au

TurboFloorPlan Home and Landscape Pro V16.0.C1.901
Envisioneer Construction Suite V9.1.2.1234
TurboCAD V17 Professional


* August 03, 2011, 12:34:18 PM
#17
Hi Allan, Doug
Thanks for all your tips.  I'm still back tryng to get my recessed can down light to look the same as a recessed can bulb :)  In the process, I built a simple vaulted ceiling and tried to comparion test... but my ceiling went black when rendered.  After soom forum search, I moved my indoor camera completely indoors  (had the lense inside, but the body outside - enough to break the render...)  Attached a pic fyi.  Also attached my generic bulb down light (combo of several bulbs with gray glass) thanks to Allans tips.

WRT Advanced indoor renders with sunlight...  turns out I have the outbuildings on seperate locations and had them off as well as everything outside except terrain.  Sounds like I probably won't speed up the render with a down-sized file... bummer.  Over the months, I have had multiple moves and nudges of walls and partial tear downs as I tried to stay in step with the builder.  I did see those wall fragements you mention.  Tried to delete the slivers and most wall joints would meld back together.  I do have some that just won't though.  I also know that some members interfere with walls or other components.  Is it possible that I have some bad geometry on other locations, and even though they're off, they mess up the active view?

Aside from the very sluggish sunlight on Adv renders, I'm pleased with the night light renderings.  The universal bulb fix saved me.   (Got any suggestions on how to apply this to an undercounter florescent bulb???) :)  I'll keep looking for broken walls, etc.

Thanks again,
Dave

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Dave
TFP pro 16.0.C1.901


* August 03, 2011, 09:21:48 PM
#18
Hi Dave,

A coulple of clarifications that may help:

After soom forum search, I moved my indoor camera completely indoors  (had the lense inside, but the body outside - enough to break the render...)
The technique of rendering with the camera outside works only if the camera is fully outside - looking at the outside wall for example.  After the render has finished and while you still have the rendered scene in the preview window, click the Modify Viewpoint, move the camera inside, and then just press the Raytrace button, which will re-render the new inside angle in just a few seconds. This was the process I referred to in the last post but the camera must be completely outside for the initial full radiosity render.

Advanced indoor renders with sunlight...  turns out I have the outbuildings on seperate locations and had them off as well as everything outside except terrain.  Sounds like I probably won't speed up the render with a down-sized file... bummer.  Over the months, I have had multiple moves and nudges of walls and partial tear downs as I tried to stay in step with the builder.  I did see those wall fragements you mention.  Tried to delete the slivers and most wall joints would meld back together.  I do have some that just won't though.  I also know that some members interfere with walls or other components.  Is it possible that I have some bad geometry on other locations, and even though they're off, they mess up the active view?
If inside renders are working OK timewise, then it may be that even though you have bad wall joins it may not be these that are causing the slowdown (although they should be fixed becasue they potentially will). If there are corruptions in the outbuildings, turning them off should stop those corruptions interfering. Wall joins should correct themselves if they are remade. If several walls join at one corner, delete one and redo it, if possible by extending one of the existing wall - this is the best way to fix them. Members joining into a wall should not cause a problem.  If a corruption is casuing the problem then the best way is to use the View Filter and turn everything off, then turn one thing on (eg walls) and render. If it is slow then then problem is in the walls. (If there are walls on different locations then turn those locations off to find the offending one). If however all the walls render quick, then leave them on and turn roofs on also and render again. If it is slow the problem is in the roof. If quick, turn something else on and so on until you find the group of objects that causes the slowdown. Now start deleting them one by one (starting with the one that is most unusual, large or in some way suspect) and render again.  By a process of elimination you can identify the problem element.

Aside from the very sluggish sunlight on Adv renders, I'm pleased with the night light renderings.  The universal bulb fix saved me.   (Got any suggestions on how to apply this to an undercounter florescent bulb???) :)
This is no different to any other light - it does not have to have a flourescent buld - use the same one you are using elsewhere. If you want it to be 'daylight' colour and are using an incandescent bulb as your universal one, then just change the bulb colour to a shade of blue istead of the usual white, varying the darkness of the blue to get the effect you want. If the light needs to spread more along the tube to look right, then just add a few more bulbs, spacing them along the tube and darkening the bulb colour if necessary if there is too much light.

If you still have problems and would like me to take a look at the model, email it to me (alches [AT] iinet [DOT] net [DOT] au). Replace the AT and DOTs with the appropriate symbols of course - trying to avoid more spam - there is enough now. We ban about 50 or more "users" a day from the forum, so they are certainly scanning it!! >:(

Allan
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 09:23:24 PM by Allan Chesney »

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Allan Chesney,
Kalamunda, Perth, Western Australia
www.alchesdesigns.iinet.net.au

TurboFloorPlan Home and Landscape Pro V16.0.C1.901
Envisioneer Construction Suite V9.1.2.1234
TurboCAD V17 Professional


* August 04, 2011, 09:12:38 AM
#19
Hi Allan,
Well, I think I found the culpret... the terrain.  I was able to get indoor radiosity Q4 - steps 2000 to complete fairly well as I turned on the inside 1st floor filters.  With bare interior and indoor lights (which promptly went off) it took 382 sec radiosity.  Adding the furniture and kitchen cabs, appliancies, etc took 712s for radiosity.  I added the basement walls which I thought would break it, but that only increased the time to 816 sec.  Turned off the basement walls and turned on the terrain (no fills, paths, etc) and I quit the radiosity at step at 155 of 2000 at 1005 sec...

The terrain is 500' by 500' and has a lot of plateaus to get close to the topology of the land.  I attached a 'big' view of the lot fyi.  So, with the terrain as the culpret, I guess it's pretty stupid having it on doing an inside render anyways :)   If you're still interested in seeing the file, let me know.   I don't know what to do to speed up the terrain... haven't tried an external adv render yet...

Thanks for all the help,
Dave

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Dave
TFP pro 16.0.C1.901


* August 04, 2011, 09:55:12 AM
#20
Hi Dave,

Well that is a bit of a relief really. If the Terrain is causing a slow Advanced render then that is not a problem, as Basic render works better for outdoor views anyway. Radiosity (in Advanced render) relies on light bounced off walls, floors and ceilings, so the only benefit outside with Advanced render is under verandahs and probably that would not be noticeable. Basic should render the scene very quickly and do a good job of it. Only if I was creating an image actually on the verandah itself, would I consider using Advanced render.

However I notice you have a lot of trees etc on the terrain. Did you have those on during your test?  If you did, then they are what would have caused the time problem. Each tree is an image that is dragged from your hard drive, so they are more likely to take time than the plateaus, especially trying to calculate all the shadows they create.

There is probably not much point sending the model at this stage unless you have further problems or if you need help with the walls issues. Basically they are just a matter of patiently working through each wall intersection to clean them up. Unfortunately if you do a lot of reworking it can leave a few problems, unless you re-do them properly at the time.

Try a Basic render outdoors and see how it goes.

Allan




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Allan Chesney,
Kalamunda, Perth, Western Australia
www.alchesdesigns.iinet.net.au

TurboFloorPlan Home and Landscape Pro V16.0.C1.901
Envisioneer Construction Suite V9.1.2.1234
TurboCAD V17 Professional


* August 04, 2011, 06:23:55 PM
#21
Hi Allan,
When the terrain bogged down the adv render, I only had the terrain on, no trees or other landscape items.

Well, I tried a basic and adv render of the front.  You're right, a huge time difference.  I was able to get some good renders inside also with just sunlight.... so I'm pretty happy.  I attached a comparison of the basic and adv of the front here.  Seems like the advanced one really pops out the colors and shadows.  (I just need a faster machine :)

Got to move the garage to align with the builders actual location.. and fix the elevation.  Its up so high, the car has to jump into the garage door :)

Thanks for the help, and I'll post some pics in the gallery after a few more fix-ups.

Thanks,
Dave

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Dave
TFP pro 16.0.C1.901


* August 04, 2011, 06:28:30 PM
#22
1. I would agree with Allan; probably not the terrain but rather so many trees causing a very slow render...especially if they are 3D trees rather than billboard type trees.....would also make the file size large.

2. There may be difference in render time between turning objects "off" vs. deleting them from a scene....only experimenting will tell for sure. It all depends on how the s/w code is written and data handled.

3. Another big suggestion....don't always assume you must render the results exactly as you want it to look. Sometimes that is a very difficult and time consuming effort tho it leads to understanding the program better.
Often the fast/easy solution is to use a post render process....such as using Photoshop (or similar program) to "adjust" the near final render to tweak to final desired image. This technique also lends itself to compositing...i.e. render various pieces or results and blend/combine/adjust using layers and masks...often much more effective, faster/easier, and have more control over the results.

4. The biggest advantage of advanced render is the shadows...instead of basic render yielding hard edge shadows, advanced render makes blended/gradual shadows and makes shadow areas lit much more realistically.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 06:32:57 PM by Doug.S »

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* August 04, 2011, 06:35:01 PM
#23
For these renders, I noticed the tree behind garage and directly above the car....looks odd, stretched or something. I can see it is a different tree and that is good, but something seems wrong with it??


Hi Allan,
When the terrain bogged down the adv render, I only had the terrain on, no trees or other landscape items.

Well, I tried a basic and adv render of the front.  You're right, a huge time difference.  I was able to get some good renders inside also with just sunlight.... so I'm pretty happy.  I attached a comparison of the basic and adv of the front here.  Seems like the advanced one really pops out the colors and shadows.  (I just need a faster machine :)

Got to move the garage to align with the builders actual location.. and fix the elevation.  Its up so high, the car has to jump into the garage door :)

Thanks for the help, and I'll post some pics in the gallery after a few more fix-ups.

Thanks,
Dave

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* August 04, 2011, 06:42:42 PM
#24
You also might note a slight difference in sun/shadow position between basic and advanced renders....it is a bug in the program.

So if you need "exact" shadows....you need to play a bit with sun time-of-day settings....usually the difference is inconsequential....unless you are making a detailed shadows study or want to match a model with a real photographed scene.

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* August 04, 2011, 08:20:19 PM
#25
Hi Dave,

As Doug said there is a bug in the time between Basic and Advanced and your two images show it up clearly. The shadows in Basic are much longer, lose detail and the whole scene is duller as if it was a hour or two later. Similarly you will notice that the trees in Advances appear overexposed which I notice often happens with Advanced when used for outside renders. Sometimes darkening the who render can help. Setting daylight to Partly Cloudy can lighten the shadows in Advanced but does not affect the plants - they remain too bright. Note my comparison images, Advanced, Cloudy Advanced, Basic and Basic with a simple enhanced contrast (30%).  Advanced took 3 min 23 seconds, while Basic took 20 seconds.  

In the Basic you will notice the shadows are lighter, it has ignored the transparency of the roof over the left hand bay window, and it has rendered the lace curtains. Advanced has ignored the lace curtains and rendered the drapes behind them, shadows are darker and graduated more naturally and it has rendered the transparency of the roof correctly. Interestingly the Advanced ones have an issue with the facia on the left hand gable of the roof (?).

Try rendering yours in Basic again an hour or two earlier and try enhancing the contrast. If Advanced render is too long then Basic may suffice.

Actually if you like you could email it to me - I would like to experiment a little with it and see if I can see why the terrain is causing a render time problem.

Doug,
For these renders, I noticed the tree behind garage and directly above the car....looks odd, stretched or something. I can see it is a different tree and that is good, but something seems wrong with it??
I think it is just that particular tree - there is one like that - it has long 'droopy' leaves.

Allan
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 08:31:25 PM by Allan Chesney »

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Allan Chesney,
Kalamunda, Perth, Western Australia
www.alchesdesigns.iinet.net.au

TurboFloorPlan Home and Landscape Pro V16.0.C1.901
Envisioneer Construction Suite V9.1.2.1234
TurboCAD V17 Professional


* August 05, 2011, 07:42:04 AM
#26
Hi Doug, Allan,
Thanks so much for the feedback.  I'm learning a bunch here.

This may seem odd, but my original indoor adv render with clear skys really slowed by just adding the terrain... no plants (of which there is a forest of them).  I don't have an adv render of the outside to compare adding just the trees.  Here is a pic of the house w/terrain only - 2400 sec radiosity.   The pic of the house and garage took 3087 sec radiosity (had garage displayed, plants, fills, fence).

Doug, I'll try some 'post processing' effects.  I have an old coral draw program, but I'm not as advanced as you or Allan.  You've done some real impressive stuff.

Allan,  I'll go ahead and send you the file.  Don't laugh too loud when you see some of the 'features' :)  I hope it doesn't take too much of your time.
Thanks,
Dave

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Dave
TFP pro 16.0.C1.901


* August 05, 2011, 09:15:58 AM
#27
Hi Dave,

It will be interesting to see the file as the terrain does not look that complicated and it is really just a single surface so I would not have thought it would affect the render time very much at all.

In fact I did some tests on a blank file.

First I Advance rendered (Q5) the Terrain with no hills or valleys and a Mesh of 1000mm (39") as a benchmark - it took 51 seconds.
Second I added lots of hills and valleys, plateaus and trenches and it added only 47 seconds (to a total of 98).
Third I changed the Terrain Mesh to 250mm (about 8") and this added 85 seconds to the flat terrain or a total of 136 seconds.

The third image is the same terrian but just a different viewpoint. Changing the viewpoint made absolutely not difference to the render time.  The only thing that made a difference was changing to a smaller mesh. This results in a much smoother terrain at a cost of 85 seconds so worth it in my opinion.  What it does seem to indicate is that the plateaus in your terrain should not be extending the render time very much unless you have a very tiny mesh but I suspect that is not the case.

Anyway it will be interesting to test out your actual model and see if I can find anything odd.

Allan

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Allan Chesney,
Kalamunda, Perth, Western Australia
www.alchesdesigns.iinet.net.au

TurboFloorPlan Home and Landscape Pro V16.0.C1.901
Envisioneer Construction Suite V9.1.2.1234
TurboCAD V17 Professional


* August 05, 2011, 02:48:00 PM
#28
Hi Allan,

Your terrain torture test looks like a tough golf course!  I hope my model reveals its secrets without too much trouble.
Thanks,

Dave

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Dave
TFP pro 16.0.C1.901


* August 06, 2011, 01:19:19 AM
#29
Hi dave,

Well the Terrain only rendered in 70 seconds so it is not the problem.

With the trees 113 seconds so they are not the problem either.

Garage Location added - now took 213 Seconds - checking further.

Allan
« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 02:03:28 AM by Allan Chesney »

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Allan Chesney,
Kalamunda, Perth, Western Australia
www.alchesdesigns.iinet.net.au

TurboFloorPlan Home and Landscape Pro V16.0.C1.901
Envisioneer Construction Suite V9.1.2.1234
TurboCAD V17 Professional