TFP Update - What's fixed and what isn't (First tests)

[Allan Chesney]

Well - some things are fixed and some not - but I suppose that is what we expected. What I didn't expect was not to be told the update was there!!!
Some initial tests revealed the following:

Catalog Issue
 The installation seems to disconnect from the catalog so make a note where it is before your start, so you can find it again. (Settings/Program Settings /General will show the file location)

Rendering
 I still cannot do Advanced render with Hardware Acceleration on

[Allan Chesney]

Mixed results many not good in my first test with interior lights.

Interior Lighting

All tests sor far and images were created with just 4 walls, floor and ceiling (all default settings) and 2 100W incandescent lights. In creating the images NOTHING was changed between images except adding the windows.

 Lights cannot be imported using 3DS files and take on lighting attributes so that is not yet available

 Lights used in these tests were set to attach to the ceiling but didn't (they sat at 2400mm, ceiling was set to 3000mm).

 Lights were hopelessly bright even in the 3D view with Interactive Lighting on. (2 images on left)

 Basic Renders were also far too bright (and unnatural shadows as before) (See 2 Centre images)

 Advanced render on quality 5 was good but...  (Right image at top)

 Add Windows and with Advance render the lights go out.  (Right image at bottom)

The last point is going to be a major issue if there is not some way around it and it occurs all the time for everyone. 
Can someone else please try this just in case it is something odd in my setup?

Allan

[Doug.S]

1. can you post the .bld file(s) so I can render exactly what you did to compare?

2. did you do these renders with sun on or off?  I have found sun often makes a big difference....sometimes in render results and other times just the total render time.

[Allan Chesney]

Doug,

They were all done with the sun on.  I found that the sun still affects the interior lights, as these further images show.

All are Advanced renders using the new cloudy and overcast settings too, all at quality 5 (just in case).

During the Radiosity rendering the lights were OK if the sun was off and was OK with Overcast but when an arched opening was added (increasing the light in the room by refection off the wall) the light turned off at about 200/1500 of the render.  They were on in the early stages but went off by themselves.
It appears to be working like a camera - if the light is bright enough it does not need the lights, so turns them off by itself.

In summary
Sun On or OFF with no windows - Interior lights OK
Sun On with Windows:  Clear Sky or Partly Cloudy:  lights went off. 
                                Overcast:  lights were OK with windows but went off with a wall opening (arch) that increased reflected light off the wall.

I also found that interior lights will go through an open door, but as shown earlier, the sun will still not go through open doors but it will now go through openings eg arch.

I will be interested to see if you find the same.

Allan

[Doug.S]

so far....I've done all the first 4...(no door) and they rendered exactly like yours

I did the one with door opening, sun on, clear sky and it rendered exactly like yours

Did these on my desktop, HA off.

I'll try the others remaining on my laptop later.....with HA "on"

I'm guessing for the exterior you changed camera view position in the render window....I almost never do that easy shortcut as I do camera view setups in full screen ....so we'll see then if my renders are different.

Just for grins, I still had my desktop TFP running so I moved camera to outside in render viewer and ran just the basic render since radiosity was done....and got what seems to be the same result only viewed from outside  (door inserted, sun, clear sky)....I'd call it a success....see attached .jpg

[Allan Chesney]

Good to know it is consistent!

Re your image, as you say a success but I suspect the same problem as me - were your window frames black?  Previously the whole wall was black - that has been fixed but window and door frames are still a problem.

Much more serious however is the fact that you cannot have light through windows and lights inside. As the render progresses the lights go out! I am just preparing some images to demonstrate - will post shortly.

Allan

[Doug.S]

Wow, new results...

on laptop, with HA "on" see results with opening in place...similar but definite differences from my desktop results and Allan's renders  (overcast light on/off)....since they were different, I re-did a couple to be sure the settings were correct.

Look close and see partly cloudy and clear sky are slightly different from each other....much different than Allan or my desktop.

So I'll try the renders without the door (I did one and thought it was the same but need to re-check) and try this set again with HA off.

HA "off" seems to make a small difference in colors but no difference in how its rendered....is virtually same as with HA "on" ....but why different than desktop and Allan renders???  (Some differences show up as slightly different file sizes too)


With HA back 'on', I ran the set of renders without the door opening....other than the slight color shifts, the renders look the same as Allan's originals above and my desktop renders.

My conclusion.....adding an opening that lets sun in or interior light out....is not a completely predictable render for radiosity and whether an interior light renders as on or off (when the light is always "on") and changes with the sun/clouds.  I think there is a bug or two with openings.  If only closed windows are used, renders are quite consistent....but still wrong to show a light "off" when it really is "on".  Best to use sun on with overcast sky  (unless its a night render) for interior views....except if you want to see sunshine into a room and accept the lights will look turned off (unless playing with light emmisivity makes then look "on" again)

Good to see we can render a 100 watt setting  OK, not like we used to set to very low wattages in ver. 12.0.

And I quit testing for now.

I recommend others try a test or two and see if something else is found same or different for these render tests.

[Allan Chesney]

I have done a series of test to try to find a way to render with lights on and still have the sun on to illuminate the outside but no success so far.  The images are four steps for the radiosity (Advanced) render and clearly show the lights go out very early in the process except Overcast and they go out slowly.  The light shades are all 99% emmissive but this goes off also, so you cannot even fake the lights being on.

You will note the light coming in through the windows and looks very natural BUT no lights on.

There are even more problems with this when you try to render with plants outside the windows. I will post these results a little later.

A lot of issues have been resolved with this update but I do hope we can find a way around this new issue as it is going to be a real problem for some of my work.

Allan

[Doug.S]

A workaround (2 ways) for the ceiling lights not showing as illuminated even with high emissivity....how to fix a rendered final image....

1. do a render in which they show illuminated OK, in Photoshop or similar program select the light fixture, copy paste onto the final render (same size) which does not render lighting fixture glass correctly...to cover the bad with a good part of the image

2. other easier way (because does not require a duplicate render) ....select the light fixture in final render  and in Photoshop or similar, change the color from dingy gray to bright white...either fill with white or change the coloring to whiter, to keep any semblance of luminosity variances to keep the realism.

Another method in general...

Do both a basic and an advanced render....maybe as many as 2 to 4 advanced renders with dim to too bright lighting....then in Photoshop or similar program,,,,

1. layer the images, align exactly, blend layers in various ways until desired results obtained...save as .jpg or final render format needed

2. Use an HDR capability and merge several lo to hi brightness images and the HDR "tool" will yield a balanced indoor/outdoor lighting...as that is what it does for hi contrast photos such as bright sky and dark canyon or an interior architectural photo with bright sun from windows mixed with relatively dim interior lights where photograph/camera cannot capture the tonal range adequately in one shot....and several images are needed

(this HDR not to be confused with .hdr images used in 3D for scene lighting and reflections)

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Doug,

I have been using these methods but not practical for my purposes. I have usually about 50 lights in the ceiling and 2-300 chairs.  The chairs are illuminated only through the windows so it is virtually useless. You can lighten them in Paint Shop but it does not look right.  I also use sequences of image to show the same room in different colours. It is impossible to get them to blen this way.

I can turn the sun off but then it is dark outside.  I have tried everthing I can think of and the example below show that it looks as though it is impossible.

The inside of the building is obviously treated differently to the ouside. You have to have a window with glass to get any light or lights of course.  Remove the roof and ceiling and still no light inside. See the images.  In fact a single wall renders black on on both sides except the end, unless you use Basic render - see image.

It seems you have to use Basic only outside and put up with a black inside and Advanced render inside and put up with washed out plants outside or just pretend it is night.

Still some issues here I am afraid.

Allan

[Doug.S]

I think your renders show clearly there are rendering bugs with lights and sun and interior and exterior views and plants....IMSI has some work to do if they expect to be a success and sell this s/w.  I read the Envisioneer forum too but don't see much on renders and don't think many do 3D renders but do more with printing 2D plans.....yet I'll bet the render engine is the same.....maybe you could ask there (and point them to your set of examples) and see if anyone has a solution or in hopes of IMSI fixing the render tools???  as it seems IMSI reads and replies to the Env. forum.


Another thought and possible workaround solution.....render with sun "off",

but put several lights outside near each window to simulate sun outside...adjust outside (fake sun) lights...maybe use EXTERIOR/LANDSCAPE spot lights raised to roof level?...shine/point light straight down or at an angle to get results both inside and adequately on the ground.

May need to place more exterior lights farther from house to get right lighting on the exterior terrain depending on the camera view and what is seen outside.

Maybe this will also resolve plants/trees/billboards outside too?

may have to play with lite fixture and bulb wattage until you find a solution?

May also have to play with selecting a proper background for night vs. day? or even insert your own pic??

Just as extra info...Carrara has ability to place a "distant" light that acts like the sun as well as a "realistic" sun render based on location/time/etc.  so you can have full control of a "fake" sun outside......while probably too much work for all the materials, you could export dxf/3ds from TFP to Carrara and render in Carrara with an "alpha" channel to just get the lit windows and use those to replace the dark background windows from a TFP render.....more work but could save the day pretty quickly...tho interior lighting from windows may not match well.  Would also need to set cameras to exact matching positions and settings....but that is not hard if you place an extra "marker" object at the camera position in TFP and then put the Carrara camera in the same spot.

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Doug,

I have tried the lights outside idea but with limited success. The best result above was done this way. I am going to experiment further this way and also try 3DS trees. The exterior lights do seen to light up the photoboard trees very well.

Envisioneer does use the same rendering engine as do some other well reported products. It seems to be the way the programmers are using it that is the problem.

Maybe they were aware of these ongoing issues and that is why the update was not publicized on the Forum! 

Allan

[Doug.S]

for 2x 1000w lights outside, by "lowered" do you mean their elevation above terrain? (if so what height?)  or do you mean less wattage (or reduced %) or they still at 1000w?

And did you use "exterior" lights? or interior lights placed outside?

And which fixtures (or bare bulb) did you try?  Maybe light choice may make a big difference.

I remember trying to use an outside light inside and rotated to make a spotlight but it never worked correctly.

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Doug,

The 2 x 1000W lights were lowered by decreasing their height from 5 metres to 2 metres - Wattage the same. I tried with inside and outside lights and did not seem to make much difference.  None of them seem to light the plants. The example below had 10 1000W lightswhiel light up the terrain but not the plants, they stay their unrendered colour if not darker. The artificial lights do not allow the photoboard plants create shadows.  I treid a couple of 3DS tress and the artificial light does illuminate them.

I notice too using outside lighting that the walls, floor and ceiling leak light around the corners. This does not happen with the sunlight which it appears can only enter the building through glass or the Opening objects.  You will notice too that, unlike the sun, the outside lights will come through the deleted ceiling onto the walls.  So it seems that 'artificial lights' are allowed to shine inside even if the sun isn't.  Strange!  The exterior artificial light shining through windows does not seem to bounce around the room in the same way.  Not much 'glow' from the floor on the walls.
Also I noticed that using artificial lights outside allows this light to go through open doors from outside - yet the sun won't - why?

A big artificial light as a sun may be the solution to many issues but the leaks of light around the edges of walls could be a problem.  More experiments needed!!


Allan

(PS - I see we now have a section announcing the patch !!)

[Doug.S]

Thanks for sharing your experiments

It struck a thought here as I remembered no roof seemed to let sun shine in....my renders are different than yours..... and I found another bug or two.

See pics below...everything the same except cameras in different positions and with/without openings....

with openings (top row) look at the door for both color and sun shade (or not) on door from sun and wall above the door making shade on the door.

And without openings  (bottom row), more differences but not black, and not correct shadows from sun

In all cases shadows from sun on wall not consistent with shadow on floor

Not sure I can ever predict render results...just trial and error....with unpredictable changes....  change one thing at a time makes more than one change in the results.