Newbie question of co-ordinate system

[tsoutherwood]

Hi,

Been evaluating TFP for a project (house renovation with some fundamental modifications). I'd be most grateful for some tips before I shell out actual cash... I have survey data I did with a laser totalstation (for fun, but the data is proving quite useful) in X/Y/Z cartesian space plus accurate room dimensions. My wish is to model the whole plot, including the house reasonably accurately for major features like walls, doors, windows and roof. I'm not bothered at this stage to get the structural elements like roofing timbers correct, but I might want to survey those later. The first point of the excercise is to play with room layouts with lots of walk throughs.

The second phase is to double check accuracy and use it to help me plan actual work and materials estimates. Being able to generate a few paper-space printouts for planning/building control in the UK would be handy too - but I'm lead to believe I would need to export DXF's to TurboCAD (or possibly Cycas) to do this?

Initially, I was playing around with the layout in Cycas which allows for absolute and relative coordiates to be entered easily and numerically. However, its 3D abilities are a bit sucky, so I've been looking for something better. I got a trial version of TFP, but I'm having conceptual difficulties with controlling dimensional positioning. I can bash stuff in with mouse clicks, but I'm trying to master accurate positioning. Ideally, I would like to be able to place the start of an object (eg wall) both relative to a coordiate base of (0,0,0) and relative to any other snap point then I'll know where I am with respect to my survey data.

The other thing Cycas did rather nicely, was allowing one to click on a snap point, then move (x/y) before confirming that was where the ne wobject start or end point was. This made exact relative placement easy too. Cycas's measuring tool ("guage") also gives x/y/z data as well as length between two points. Can't seem to get the measure tool in TFP to give me anything except length. Is that possible?

Any tips? I'm definately not grokking the mental model used by TFP, having got used to another way.

I have been considering Arcon3d too, but they don't seem to have a trial version - in fact everything's been pulled due to the imminent release of the next version next month, so I can't compare features.

Many thanks for your time

Cheers

Tim

[Doug.S]

I'll try to answer each of your questions, but in general TFP works internally with x,y,z but the user cannot get to these 3D space locations directly like in a CAD tool.  However, there is no serious limitation as you can work around very well without using direct or relative coordinates.  The UI is more visual and still intuitive.  TFP is primarily a visual 3D view output.

You can create a whole model including terrain from a coordinate set of measures but for the most part you need to convert space coordinates to measured distances in ortho graphics views in x-y, x-z, and y-z planes.

There is no direct way to import x,y,z coordinates for a terrain however you can easily generate a .3ds surface object from your data in another 3D program and import the .3ds into TFP.  Unless you need exact terrain contours, you can get close enough for visuals in TFP.

TFP is accurate to .001" or more if you set it that way, but for architecture, accuracy to 1/4" is more typically all that is needed.

Yes, TCAD or other tool is much better for 2D floorplan printouts for construction plans for approvals as TFP has too many limitations for printing 2D...but it may get you by for a remodel job.  Dimensioning is the usual TFP limitation.

3D views rendered for viewing the "to be" cases is what TFP is used mostly for.

For better numerical inputs, be sure to turn on the "commander" on bottom of screen using the program settings...search this forum for "commander" to get more help and use the help file in TFP.

You can easily use snap on/off and set accuracy for snap for grid and angles...see help file and play with it. Really useful at times to use the grid at a spacing setting suitable for your job...can change it as you go in the same file anytime.

Simply start in a corner of the building, get he basic layout correct for major rooms and sizes and right angles, then go back and add details and adjust to exact dimensions.

Turning collision detection and snap on or off at times is useful.  Usually construct in 2D and view in 3D...setup so you can jump back and forth or use 2 open windows setup for your work...one as 2D and one window as 3D.

Ask more specific questions as you hit a sticking point.  No substitute for playing around and solving problems one at a time...save often and use another file to test out an idea instead of risking your master file.

[tsoutherwood]

Doug - thanks very much for taking the time to reply:

"However, there is no serious limitation..." - this is what I like to hear; know it is possible makes it worth the time to learn to master it.

"For better numerical inputs, be sure to turn on the "commander"..." - Thanks for that - I will look into it, sounds promising on a cursory inspection...

"Simply start in a corner of the building, get he basic layout correct for major rooms and sizes and right angles, then go back and add details and adjust to exact dimensions." - Perhaps this is the nub of my problem. I've been trying to get it perfect as I go as that's easier in Cycas. I suspect trying to change my thinking to "sketch it roughly then adjust for accuracy" may be the paradigm shift that I needed to be aware of.

Many thanks for your guidance - this is all I needed to know at this stage, I can fiddle round some more now

Cheers

Tim

[Allan Chesney]

Hi Tim,

Doug has covered your questions nicely and I support his comments all the way.   While printing is a limitation, if you find the output is not good enough, nevertheless TFP will enable you to get the job done much quicker - even if you have to use TCad or similar to finish them off.  Once you get used to the tools ,it is very quick to do!

As Doug said accuracy is not a problem either.  Don't overlook the Nudge tool - I find it very usefull.  Usually I set it to 1mm so you can move things in 1 mm increments, using the arrow keys of the keyboard.  Ideal for nudging things close together or for getting perfect alignment.

Doug also referred to the Commander bar. With this turned on (Settings/Program Settings/Workspace) as you draw walls for example, it will read out where you are in Polar or Cartesian (you can switch it with the mouse as you draw).  You can type into the X or Y box (or direction and Angle box) if you want - just type or Tab and type to use the other input but I find it much easier to drag the wall out and watch the floating dimension or the Commander bar, making precise adjustments if necessary by dragging the wall.

Yes the Tape Measure is limited but the Commander Bar will still show the exact distance of the tape, as will the Status Bar that gives the section and total distance.

TFP will also do Estimates and a Cutting list but I have not played with this much so cannot comment on the accuracy. Obviously for it to be accurate you would have to make sure to predefine objects to what you want. At present it is very easy to just grab a wall and insert it and not worry about that is 'inside it'.  Since it is mainly used for 3D visualisation it does not matter what is inside the wall surfaces - but it would to the estimates!!

Tim - while I was typing this you replied to Doug but I decided to post this anyway as it probably is still relevent.

Regards,

Allan
Perth - Australia

[Voodooman]

It seems unlikely that a new version of Arcon will be released next month, I am interested to hear where that info came from as the current range is only 6 months old and is based on old versions anyway - just rebadged.

It seems that there has been no work on Arcon for several years.

The info is  here http://www.store.eleco.com/acatalog/arcon-3d-comparison-chart.html

Arcon is also Europe specific and doesnt do timber framing, so would not suit you if you live in a country like USA or Canada.


Peter

[tsoutherwood]

Hi Voodooman

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Arcon-3D-Visual-Architect-PC/dp/B0017RRDNW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1213652194&sr=8-1

mentions pre-ordering for mid July 2008.

I read that as implying  a new version. But thinking about it, it could just mean that Amazon have decided to stock it.

Cheers

Tim

[tsoutherwood]

Hi Allan,

Thanks for your reply - I'll look at the nudge feature too, Just going to reboot to Windows (VMWare OpenGL emulation too slow for TFP; it works, but like a slug with a broken leg)

I report back on how I got on...

Cheers

Tim

[Doug.S]

also be aware, depending on your PC system, hardware acceleration usage in TFP can be excellent or terrible...may work OK in design mode but freeze or stumble when rendering...

So try program settings with h/w acceleration set to "on"...and if OK, use it (uses OpenGL)....but if you have problems, consider trying turning h/w accel. "off" to see if it helps/solves problems.

[tsoutherwood]

Hi All,

Had a go this morning. Lo - all is coming together. Draw house walls roughly, then adjust to precision. The 1mm nudge suggestion was genius.

I haven't mastered it yet, but I'm convinced enough now to buy a copy and invest the time transferring in my current plan data.

I'll probably be back later, having trouble with wall thickness  - but I'll have a go at sorting it myself first.

I'm impressed that it did such a good job of putting a hip roof together with minimal data (I had to do a bit of 3D trig to work out the slope angles, but the result looks about right).

Cheers and thanks again.

Tim

[Allan Chesney]

Tim,

You did not say what the wall thickness problem was but remember that you can create a new one any thickness - just right click in the list and Add New, or you can Edit an existing one.

Allan

[tsoutherwood]

Hi Allan,

I suspect it's something silly. I have a 295mm wall (UK brick/brick cavity 1950's jobbie) but the actual wall on TFP, despite being 295mm thick is being created with an extra "skin" by the look of it, leading to a greater thickness on the plan.

I'll have a look at the wall element properties - it might be a plaster layer or something...

I'll be back if I can't fix it.

Cheers
Tim

[tsoutherwood]

FAO Allan.

From one of your posts back in 2007:

"Is it possible to add some solid brick walls to the catalog.  Here in Western Australia almost all homes are built with double brick exterior walls and single brick interior walls (we have lots of clay!!).  Under Exterior Walls in the catalog there are Brick Walls but these are really brick veneer walls. When you look at the Materials list it gives the stud quantities, even if you set both wall faces to brick.  It will also only list studs if it is a free standing wall - eg - if you make 3 walls as a courtyard, you only end up with studs in the quantities, no bricks - it will add bricks (for one side of the wall) if you join the walls to make a room."

I bet what I'm seeing is a veneer. Again, in England, lots of brick, or brick+block cavity walls.

I'll make my own...

Cheers

Tim

[Allan Chesney]

Tim,

If you use the Foundation Walls they default to concrete or masonry block without wall framing so if you use the Material Estimates you don't get all the timber listed.  The lines will also NOT show a veneer and if you zoom in reeeeeeeally close will find that you can set it to 295 and it will measure 295 from the centre of the two lines that make up the wall.

A couple of the Exterior group walls do give a veneer that automatically increases the thickness.  You can set the colours of these lines (but you need to select the Heavy line weight) and Add your own colours but you cannot set the veneer thickness against the stud wall thickness.  To get a 295 wall you would probably have to make a new Veneer wall only 175mm - it will add the remaining 120 (95 Veneer + 25 cavity) to give a 295 cavity wall, albeit not two brick walls but a stud and veneer.

TFP obviously does not allow for British (or Australian) building standards in this area, but since it is mainly designed for 3D visualisation, which it does really well, I suppose the interior of the wall between the surfaces textures does not really matter.

Allan

[tsoutherwood]

Thanks again Allan.

I suppose, if I really wanted a cavity wall. I could just draw 2 single brick walls next to each other. But, I agree, for this purpose, solid is fine.

Cheers

Tim

[Allan Chesney]

Tim,

Doing two walls is an option but creates real problems if you are wanting to view things in 3D - eg getting windows and doors to insert through two walls!! Depends how you are using it and what you want to achieve I suppose.

Regards,
Allan