Additional Catalogs

[Kajvin - Robert W]

Doug I suspect there is some bug in the render program or something is missing that was in the old FP even this is a diffrent typ of program I have try whit skp-file whit the same result it look nice sketchup but get messy in tfp
Robert

[Nik]

I've seen something like this before when, IIRC, the facets' 'Normals' were not aligned. So, adjacent facets were drawn and textured in different sequence -- ABC vs ACB vs BAC-- high-lighting their angularity...

As a result, a fairly-high poly-count model looked significantly cruder than a similar, lower-count model...

Hmm... In a 'spline' model, does the program optimise facet shapes and sizes ?? That must help !!

IIRC, many 3D programs have a tool which can 'comb' abNormal 'tats' into order. Also, even the apparently clunky Draw3D could 'multiply' facets in selected 'boxy' areas...

One reason for wayward normals, IMHO, is that many models are intended for use with a UV-mapped, wrapped texture. The render engine never 'sees' the massing-model's facets, only the lovingly painted custom texture...

IIRC, a quick fix is to use a 'matt' texture.
Also, avoid point-sources of light ??
---

Um, this is one reason why I began using Poser(TM) beside FP. Poser_4 could handle high-poly objects, would let me re-create Medieval-ish FP scenes in close-up using essentially the same 3DS models. Unfortunately, my grand FP plan is still unfinished-- 'Classic' FP ran out of 'headroom', began disk-thrashing with two (2) Gigabytes of vacant RAM remaining !! Not Amused !! Though P_4 did not get much use for 'architecture', it was such fun that I've just upgraded to P_7...

[Doug.S]

Thanks for the potential tips

I do have a 3D program that can point the normals in one direction....may give that a try.

What do you mean exactly by a "matt" texture...plain color, no reflection or no emissive etc? or a plain color image map?

I tried "multiply" (smooth, subdivide, etc) and all it did was make many more smaller vertex surfaces...otherwise render result the same.

I have 3, point light sources....TFP only has point sources that I have found so far...no spotlights, fluorescents are really point light sources.  And if you want any light other than sunlight thru window, you must insert point light sources for radiosity renders.

[Doug.S]

I do have a 3D program that can point the normals in one direction....may give that a try.
What do you mean exactly by a "matt" texture...plain color, no reflection or no emissive etc? or a plain color image map?

See attached images...
- sink "normals" all looked OK, but I did a "unify normals", saved as .3ds, imported, rendered...normals made no difference
- also tried textured vs. plain bright white...all material render settings = 0 except for bleed = 0 and 100...very little difference
- I also rendered the exact same unified.3ds object in my other 3D program (Carrara) and it renders smooth as a baby's ___ ...see next ...limit of 4 files per post

Conclusions:
- TFP render engine needs improvement or a user choice about object smoothness
- normals are normal
- color bleed has minimal affect
- plain materials don't improve vertex face renders

[Doug.S]

- I also rendered the exact same unified.3ds object in my other 3D program (Carrara) and it renders smooth as a baby's ___ ...see next ...limit of 4 files per post
[/quote]

see attached Carrara render of same object...smooth!

[Nik]

Sorry, Doug, I thought it was worth a try...

IIRC, 'aligning the Normals' works if the render engine's smoothing algorithm judders for tats...

Okay, seems current TFP render won't smooth facets, while Carrara can handle that bowl every which way !! Looks like TFP needs a 'Smooth' option...

Um, I meant matt vs gloss, so that reflected light is scattered broadly rather than mirrored, masking the slight change of angle. Something about polar diagrams, and 'rates of change' of reflectivity ?? D'uh, I used to understand the theory behind this stuff...

[Kajvin - Robert W]

Daug and Nik this is my best try after I have reinstall the program, and updated graphic cards to newer settings, 5/4 render Radiosity/Raytrace, but this is extrem environment.
Robert

[Allan Chesney]

- I also rendered the exact same unified.3ds object in my other 3D program (Carrara) and it renders smooth as a baby's ___ ...see next ...limit of 4 files per post

see attached Carrara render of same object...smooth!
[/quote]

Doug,

I have just noticed a free copy of Carrara Pro (V5 I think) on a PC Magazine cover disk, which lead we to wonder how well it utilised TFP files.  For instance, is it possible to render a DXF/3DS/BLD (or whatever) from TFP and render the whole model. Is it simple or do textures etc have to be redone or what?  I do not have a lot of time to learn new programs, so if it was straight forward I may consider it.  I know in the past that you have spoken favourably of the results so I would appreciate your comments, particularly on how involved it is?

Allan

[Doug.S]

Carrara readily imports TFP and FP dxf export files with grace and ease (and pro version does dwg 3ds and more).  The file becomes a large numbered and named indentted list set of vertex objects with color only materials but Carrara has an extensive ability to apply materials and textures with MUCH better control than TFP....but of course it means a lot of detail work in applying materials on a per object basis.

Since you are familiar with 3D tools your learning curve should be fairly fast but the tools and where to find them will take some learning....but not as bad as a typical CAD program and there are 2 main forums with plenty of users and help from newbies to experts.

The free copy of C5pro is a super deal and version 5 is very advanced...tho ver 6 does have a few new nice features....but ver 5 will do most of your needs.

I have imported a full house model and did 30 sec. movies of sunrise thru sunset for 3 times of the year to track interior sunlight and exterior shadows as well as "bird's eye" flyarounds. I usually do most renderings still in TFP unless a certain characteristic is needed as Carrara has a wide variety of lighting capabilities and rendering outputs controls and the renderer is quite fast even for complex renders...excellent quality output. 

And carrara is a full capability program for 3D terrain/landscape/vegetation and modeling and motion and is expanding into human figures with free DAZ studio or easy import of Poser stuff, including animation and hair and growing hair withing Carrara 6.1. Go to DAZ3D.com to check the long list of carrara capabilities.....extremely good for mid priced s/w....excellent value and developers listen to users and readily produce bug fixes and maintain a bug list on-line log for users. Their chief developer even watches the forums for issues and provide answers on occasion. There are several independent 3D plug-in developers and the plug-ins are usually low cost like $30 each with free upgrades to new released versions...see digital carver group .com

Get the program even if only to play with it or have it handy just in case you may need to use it.  I also use carrara to generate .3ds objects for FP/TFP.

I've used Carrara from ver. 1.0 and its predecessor RayDream ver. 3 thru 5.5 so I'm very familiar with it.  Carrara was bought by DAZ about a year ago and direction has changed a little but no loss in product expansion with new release/update about every 18 months. Just yesterday I did a 3D design and exported the "rendered" result as a .ai format with transparency to keep file size small (but typical render bit-mapped formats also available, including spherical pano camera).  There is very little you can't do that even the pros do for movies like Pixar...including physics, particles, smoke, water-flows/motion, windblown trees, etc.

Ask any more questions if above is insufficient.  Also the carrara forums are very friendly people.

[Allan Chesney]

Doug,

Thanks for that summary - I will get it (since free is very cheap!).  It is a shame it does not carry over the textures and presumably it is not editable (as in minor remodelling with late changes) - it would be a pain to have all the textures changed and then have to do some remodelling back in TFP (is that what would happen?).  Since it obviously renders so well why do you use TFP and predecessors?  I assume because Carrara is not actually for house design as such but just does 3D generally(?)

Allan

[Doug.S]

Actually I don't think I've tried a TFP export to Carrara as of yet...so maybe some materials come thru in the right format but often materials do not transfer for many 3D formats because the materials structures if other than a .jpg applique never are the same because of each programs proprietary software....and export/import file structures.  Maybe I'll try a simple TFP one room house export for a test check.

Carrara is fully editable....actually more so than imports from TFP....for example I can import a TFP object into Carrara (or Hexagon) and change any part of the object and/or re-name/re-assign the materials domains so materials can be applied to different parts of an object differently...and apply shaders in Carrara or export the object with new domains back to TFP as .3ds and apply materials as desired in TFP to the parts of the object as desired....I can explain further if needed.

Yes it is an issue if you export a large TFP file to Carrara, setup materials etc and render...then decide a change is needed in TFP and redo the large file.....BUT, a change in TFP could be exported as a set of objects (hide everything else) and import and replace the changed parts in Carrara and the new materials work in Carrara would only be as large as the new import changes. Locating in 3D in Carrara is easy with dimensional accuracy and location easily entered by numbers in x,y,z and rotations angle for each axis and the axes can be rotated in the working space temporarily as a subset of axes.

I render in TFP because for most everything I need it for it does it good enough and is handy/easy (when it works) and radiosity is now much better than FP11.  Carrara has even more than radiosity like subsurface scattering, HDR lighting, controllable sky-lighting with clouds and fog etc.  Great if you need extreme realism or if can't get a scene just right in TFP....but of course is more work too.

Carrara is a general purpose program and does not have the automatic architectural features like TFP tho there is one architectural plug-in it seems limited ...see architools  at http://www.inagoni.com/news.php

For me, for architecture, TFP remains a primary tool for 3D. For 2D (drawings and printing) I use "Visio" and trace for TFP. But I use Carrara for most all other 3D....and Hexagon for unusual 3D objects construction.

see info about Carrara here: 
http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/software/carrara/-/?&_m=d
http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/software/carrara/-/features?&_m=d
http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/software/carrara/-/comparison?&_m=d

and great plugins here:  http://www.digitalcarversguild.com/

[Doug.S]

"Actually I don't think I've tried a TFP export to Carrara as of yet...so maybe some materials come thru in the right format but often materials do not transfer for many 3D formats because the materials structures if other than a .jpg applique never are the same because of each programs proprietary software....and export/import file structures.  Maybe I'll try a simple TFP one room house export for a test check."

Finally got around to exporting a TFP12 .bld (basic simple 2 story from builder wizard) as .dxf and as .3ds to Carrara 6.1pro......not the same as FP11/10/9/8

.dxf was terrible.....many parts missing etc....I gave up pretty quickly  (dxf worked very well in FPxx)

.3ds however was very easy (had to work out a scale factor; took only a minute or so.

see renders below... first one done in TFP was a 2d screen picture export (no render), second done as Carrara  basic render with no adjustments after import except to aim camera and sun...rest were default simple render....and voila textures came thru (but no transparency)

My conclusion is that TFP12 to C6 is easy as long as you export .3ds from TFP.  With only a little more work on setting render, add sky, add transparency to glass, it will look very good quickly.  Maybe when I find time I'll tweak Carrara file to get a much better render.

Note file sizes:

.bld =   343K
.dxf = 2,013K
.3ds =   259K
.car =     69K

Carrara seems to be quite efficient file size wise

[Allan Chesney]

Doug,

Thanks for that - I bought the magazine today but I have not installed it yet.

Allan

[Doug.S]

did a little more work in Carrara
added transparency to windows, one small interior light bulb in second floor (otherwise too dark), added sky and infinite terrain

see two renders below...camera angle could be better as well as adding trees and mountains etc.  Still simple renders, no radiosity or DHRI or other fancy stuff.

Oddly all items are described as materials, not named like walls and floor but fairly easy to garb any one item and change the materials....but since materials came included, little work to do for materials

So I'm done playing but TFP to Carrara via .3ds works well

[Allan Chesney]

Doug,

Well I have installed Carrara and it certainly looks very comprehensive as far as functionality goes but however do you actually start doing something?

I tried to Open and Import my simple 3DS house (4 walls and a roof) but how do I actually see it?  I assume it is there, as the lower right box lists it by name but all I see is a grid pattern. I think I tried every button on every toolbar but still could not see it. I did find Render but this created a totally black AVI file.

Assuming my 3DS output from TFP was no good, I went back and imported it to TFP but it imported back to TFP exactly as I had saved it.  Obviously I am missing something fundamental (actually I am missing an awfull lot when I look at all the options available!!). The Popup at the start suggested the Quick Tour but I was unable to find that either.

I tried opening the old 3DS Block and that showed up fine, so I assume it is something to do with scale.  The lower right box also listed the materials (called them objects) separately (only2) but my house only had the name, no materials list. I was even able to apply a terrain to the Block - accidental but I did it and rendered it and I was quite impressed with the result - not that a two tone 3DS block somewhere out in the Arizona (presumably) desert is impressive but to me it was, given that it took me several hours!!!

I don't want this to start a long drawn-out tutorial for another product, since neither of us probably have the time and this is obvioulsy not the place, but if you can point me to how to see a house sized 3DS object I can probably then fiddle with the other functionality if/when I get time.  At the moment I just can't get off first base with it!!

Allan